Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Dagon was one of the many false gods of the OT. Here is one account, and remember that the assertion is that we follow this god:
1 Sam 5:2-7 : 2 Then they carried the ark into Dagon's temple and set it beside Dagon. 3 When the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the Lord! They took Dagon and put him back in his place. 4 But the following morning when they rose, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the Lord! His head and hands had been broken off and were lying on the threshold; only his body remained. 5 That is why to this day neither the priests of Dagon nor any others who enter Dagon's temple at Ashdod step on the threshold.
6 The Lord's hand was heavy upon the people of Ashdod and its vicinity; he brought devastation upon them and afflicted them with tumors. 7 When the men of Ashdod saw what was happening, they said, "The ark of the god of Israel must not stay here with us, because his hand is heavy upon us and upon Dagon our god."
Obviously, the assertion is that none of us are Christians.
The Westminster Confession does not presume to know the election status of anyone. All anyone can know is their election status.
Catholics have this entirely backwards IMO. They presume to know the election status of babies and people who have died, yet they don't know their own election status.
I wonder if Peter or Paul thought that they were saved while on earth?
FK: That's right. The scriptures are clear on that. To build in allegory without scriptural support for their own position is forced
The only thing the Scriptures is clear on is that the heaven is "up" there and hell is "down" somewhere in earth. Do you believe hell is in earth?
Christ has a Body sitting to the right "side" of the Father Who has NO BODY! Do you have any idea where Christ's body may be located in space?
Obviously, our language and conceptutal capacities are deficient in being able to express or know such mysteries intellectually, just as none of those alive really knows what it means to be dead. Only the dead do. A different dimension. They are profoundly experiential in nature, and as such can only be described allegorically and anecdotally.
Can you describe accurately what love is in real physical terms? Or can you only appeal to experiential and anecdotal tools and know that they all fall short of what you really know?
You cannot speak of the other dimension in terms of this dimension. All we know is that everything that lives dies. What happens behind that door is not within us to know in this dimention (of our existence), or to describe except as allegory. Literalism is a sure way to miss the point.
But you are right: allegories are forced upon us to describe the indescribable.
I believe hell tends to be played down too much. Some think of it as a separation from God, God turning their back on sinners, etc. I actually believe we are sugarcoating these to excuse our condition. If the flames of hell are real and it is a place where the worms will eat us throughout eternity; knowing that God is a just and merciful God should make us think what vile creatures we actually are to receive such a sentence. We should also stop and think what a wonderful and loving God we have, that He is willing to endure us in our condition simply to save and prepare some of us for heaven. While most don't like to think of ourselves in this way, I think Jonathan Edwards explains it best in Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God
Au contraire, FK, they are as loose as it gets and getting looser by the day...thousands of splinter groups. The fact that there is no one Protestant Church indicates that there is no one Protestant theology and that such relativistic groups cannot subscribe to an absolute truth or a single corherent theology, but is a loose aggregation of personal interpretations.
As I said, you and Osteen cannot be both guided by the same Spirit and be on opposite ends of hell.
I'm sure that Osteen would say he is led by the Holy Spirit, the same as I do, and the same as your saying that the Holy Spirit leads the consensus patrum
The Holy Spirit leads to consensus patrum, to one Church, FK, not to 33,000 denominations.
Actually, isn't it Orthodoxy that employs a much higher level of mystery in its theology?
What does mystery have to do with relativism? God IS mystery. Can you describe God accurately as He is? Or do you have to use allegorical language? The only way to describe God for us to be able to see Him and know Him in our terms is through Christ. That is a profound revelation. He is nothing like us. That's why Christ took on human nature, so that we can relate to Him through the prism of our limited senses and concepts, in human terms. Otherwise, relating to God is impossible without heretical anthropomorphism.
But, unlike Protestants, we believe in one thing, one Holy Apostolic Church, one Truth, One God, one Faith. Not thousands of relatively more-or-less "true" faiths or opinions...and for all the hype of differences between the Orthodox and Catholic, the two Churches are 99% in agreement (the 1% of disagreement is profound and didfficult for human mindsets to resolve), but it is safe to say that, all things considered, despite 1,000 years of separation and more, and cultural diversities, our Church has remaind almost untouched, and did not turn into 33,000 little "churches." That is a testimony of itself of the fact that Gates of Hell shall not overcome it.
Who is guided by the Spirit? One must be closer to the truth than the others. Where does one go to find the answers? Do they go to a group of men who decide for them? If so then who's right, the Orthodox or the Catholics? Orthodox can pull out writings from fathers but so can the Catholics. What good does it do? In the end it all comes back to what is written in God's word.
We have indications that we can.
There have been many people who have apparently embraced the faith sincerely and wholly and then fallen away at some point in their lives. There have been many people who have spurned the faith of Jesus for Eastern mysticism or pagan rites.
If we spurn God, then we spurn His Grace, and lose our faith. The evidence is there.
The Pope wandered off into heresy; Church teachings did not and the Church took it seriously enough that it took the steps as drastically as it did to make sure that any error lurking in the wings or under the carpet were eradicated. You must admit that the reaction was pretty drastic.
Some say a lot of things; look at the current crop of Presidential candidates for instance. It doesn’t make them either true or untrue.
“Obviously, the assertion is that none of us are Christians.”
You really do have to take such comments whence they come, FK! :)
In any event, I haven’t noticed that any of you are sissies, unlike some around here!
We know where our treasure is. They can carp all they want to, it is God who choses his own. Praise be God on high.
Faith, by definition, is, well, faith. How can we spurn something that we have faith in. The evidences isn't as it seems.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Was he a true Pope? Was the line broken?
LOLOL!!! Yes, we're "manly" Christians.
er....Yes Dear, I'll vacuum right after I finish the dusting.
But doesn't it presume to know that God creates innocent babies - born and forever - reprobate?
The souls of the saved experience discomfort through shame as their unrepented sins are revealed in full and as they stand "naked" before God and all the saints. The period from particular to Final Judgment is a period of purification, through prayers, commemorative services, fasting, etc. not by being roasted to God's "satifaction." The fires they feel are not real fires, but God's love which burns all sinners confornted with Truth.
Dear Kosta, This actually explains purgation of sin very well.
No, the confession gives us no idea since it is impossible to know the mind of God.
VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.
VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel. - Westminster Confession-Effective Calling
-----------------------
EFFECTUAL CALLING
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit, who works when, and where, and how He pleases: so also are all other elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.
It seems to say so there in IV - “Others...”?
It simply saying that only the elected go to heaven. Others do not. Who those “others” are we don’t know.
The website has scriptural references if you need it.
I’m not being clear, my apologies.
I don’t mean to say that in Calvinism, you know specifically who is born reprobate and who is born elect. But that some are born reprobate and forever reprobate.
This would be a true statement, yes?
What you are implying is that some people are born elected and some are born reprobates, which is not technically correct. All people are born in a fallen, wicked state. God, by His grace and mercy, elects some people according to His divine purpose that has nothing to do with what we do. Moses, Jeremiah, Abraham, Paul are a few examples of God coming to them, not them coming to God.
The rest God passes by; why we don't know. Two people hear the same sermon, one believes and one doesn't. God gave one faith. The other He did not. There is nothing that we have that hasn't been given to us. That is how God works.
Everyone God wants saved will be saved.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.