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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

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To: irishtenor; Missey_Lucy_Goosey; Kolokotronis
What or who is dagon?

Dagon was one of the many false gods of the OT. Here is one account, and remember that the assertion is that we follow this god:

1 Sam 5:2-7 : 2 Then they carried the ark into Dagon's temple and set it beside Dagon. 3 When the people of Ashdod rose early the next day, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the Lord! They took Dagon and put him back in his place. 4 But the following morning when they rose, there was Dagon, fallen on his face on the ground before the ark of the Lord! His head and hands had been broken off and were lying on the threshold; only his body remained. 5 That is why to this day neither the priests of Dagon nor any others who enter Dagon's temple at Ashdod step on the threshold.

6 The Lord's hand was heavy upon the people of Ashdod and its vicinity; he brought devastation upon them and afflicted them with tumors. 7 When the men of Ashdod saw what was happening, they said, "The ark of the god of Israel must not stay here with us, because his hand is heavy upon us and upon Dagon our god."

Obviously, the assertion is that none of us are Christians.

10,661 posted on 11/07/2007 4:28:20 AM PST by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: D-fendr; Missey_Lucy_Goosey; kosta50
I think it goes with how God is just in creating innocent babies born reprobate - doomed as well.

The Westminster Confession does not presume to know the election status of anyone. All anyone can know is their election status.

Catholics have this entirely backwards IMO. They presume to know the election status of babies and people who have died, yet they don't know their own election status.

I wonder if Peter or Paul thought that they were saved while on earth?

10,662 posted on 11/07/2007 4:42:26 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Forest Keeper; Missey_Lucy_Goosey; HarleyD; Kolokotronis; D-fendr
MLG: I think where the easterns have difficulty here is the terminology of "place", which means a location in spacial dimensions, whereas they see the separation from God, ...... as one being of a purely spiritual condition, of "darkness" or the absence of Light. But in that construct, it is forgotten that the wicked will be resurrected to a real, physical body, which indeed does require a "place" since that body has spacial dimensions

FK: That's right. The scriptures are clear on that. To build in allegory without scriptural support for their own position is forced

The only thing the Scriptures is clear on is that the heaven is "up" there and hell is "down" somewhere in earth. Do you believe hell is in earth?

Christ has a Body sitting to the right "side" of the Father Who has NO BODY! Do you have any idea where Christ's body may be located in space?

Obviously, our language and conceptutal capacities are deficient in being able to express or know such mysteries intellectually, just as none of those alive really knows what it means to be dead. Only the dead do. A different dimension. They are profoundly experiential in nature, and as such can only be described allegorically and anecdotally.

Can you describe accurately what love is in real physical terms? Or can you only appeal to experiential and anecdotal tools and know that they all fall short of what you really know?

You cannot speak of the other dimension in terms of this dimension. All we know is that everything that lives dies. What happens behind that door is not within us to know in this dimention (of our existence), or to describe except as allegory. Literalism is a sure way to miss the point.

But you are right: allegories are forced upon us to describe the indescribable.

10,663 posted on 11/07/2007 4:48:04 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Missey_Lucy_Goosey
I sure don't know exactly what the experience of the reprobate will be in hell, and I'm sure I don't want to know. :) But I think everything you said is perfectly reasonable.

I believe hell tends to be played down too much. Some think of it as a separation from God, God turning their back on sinners, etc. I actually believe we are sugarcoating these to excuse our condition. If the flames of hell are real and it is a place where the worms will eat us throughout eternity; knowing that God is a just and merciful God should make us think what vile creatures we actually are to receive such a sentence. We should also stop and think what a wonderful and loving God we have, that He is willing to endure us in our condition simply to save and prepare some of us for heaven. While most don't like to think of ourselves in this way, I think Jonathan Edwards explains it best in Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God

10,664 posted on 11/07/2007 5:04:12 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; HarleyD
Oh, I think Reformers are a pretty tight bunch. It still sounds like you think it is proper to lump all Protestants together as being under one roof, the way you are

Au contraire, FK, they are as loose as it gets and getting looser by the day...thousands of splinter groups. The fact that there is no one Protestant Church indicates that there is no one Protestant theology and that such relativistic groups cannot subscribe to an absolute truth or a single corherent theology, but is a loose aggregation of personal interpretations.

As I said, you and Osteen cannot be both guided by the same Spirit and be on opposite ends of hell.

I'm sure that Osteen would say he is led by the Holy Spirit, the same as I do, and the same as your saying that the Holy Spirit leads the consensus patrum

The Holy Spirit leads to consensus patrum, to one Church, FK, not to 33,000 denominations.

Actually, isn't it Orthodoxy that employs a much higher level of mystery in its theology?

What does mystery have to do with relativism? God IS mystery. Can you describe God accurately as He is? Or do you have to use allegorical language? The only way to describe God for us to be able to see Him and know Him in our terms is through Christ. That is a profound revelation. He is nothing like us. That's why Christ took on human nature, so that we can relate to Him through the prism of our limited senses and concepts, in human terms. Otherwise, relating to God is impossible without heretical anthropomorphism.

But, unlike Protestants, we believe in one thing, one Holy Apostolic Church, one Truth, One God, one Faith. Not thousands of relatively more-or-less "true" faiths or opinions...and for all the hype of differences between the Orthodox and Catholic, the two Churches are 99% in agreement (the 1% of disagreement is profound and didfficult for human mindsets to resolve), but it is safe to say that, all things considered, despite 1,000 years of separation and more, and cultural diversities, our Church has remaind almost untouched, and did not turn into 33,000 little "churches." That is a testimony of itself of the fact that Gates of Hell shall not overcome it.

10,665 posted on 11/07/2007 5:04:39 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis
Au contraire, FK, they are as loose as it gets and getting looser by the day...thousands of splinter groups. The fact that there is no one Protestant Church indicates that there is no one Protestant theology

As I said, you and Osteen cannot be both guided by the same Spirit and be on opposite ends of hell.

The Holy Spirit leads to consensus patrum, to one Church, FK, not to 33,000 denominations.

for all the hype of differences between the Orthodox and Catholic, the two Churches are 99% in agreement (the 1% of disagreement is profound and didfficult for human mindsets to resolve),


10,666 posted on 11/07/2007 5:30:55 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

We have indications that we can.

There have been many people who have apparently embraced the faith sincerely and wholly and then fallen away at some point in their lives. There have been many people who have spurned the faith of Jesus for Eastern mysticism or pagan rites.

If we spurn God, then we spurn His Grace, and lose our faith. The evidence is there.


10,667 posted on 11/07/2007 6:01:31 AM PST by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

The Pope wandered off into heresy; Church teachings did not and the Church took it seriously enough that it took the steps as drastically as it did to make sure that any error lurking in the wings or under the carpet were eradicated. You must admit that the reaction was pretty drastic.

Some say a lot of things; look at the current crop of Presidential candidates for instance. It doesn’t make them either true or untrue.


10,668 posted on 11/07/2007 6:31:53 AM PST by MarkBsnr (V. Angelus Domini nuntiavit Mariae. R. Et concepit de Spiritu Sancto.)
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To: Forest Keeper; irishtenor; Missey_Lucy_Goosey; HarleyD

“Obviously, the assertion is that none of us are Christians.”

You really do have to take such comments whence they come, FK! :)

In any event, I haven’t noticed that any of you are sissies, unlike some around here!


10,669 posted on 11/07/2007 7:02:58 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Forest Keeper; Missey_Lucy_Goosey

We know where our treasure is. They can carp all they want to, it is God who choses his own. Praise be God on high.


10,670 posted on 11/07/2007 9:37:37 AM PST by irishtenor (History was written before God said "Let there be light.")
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To: MarkBsnr
If we spurn God, then we spurn His Grace, and lose our faith. The evidence is there.

Faith, by definition, is, well, faith. How can we spurn something that we have faith in. The evidences isn't as it seems.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

10,671 posted on 11/07/2007 9:47:24 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: MarkBsnr
The Pope wandered off into heresy; Church teachings did not and the Church took it seriously enough that it took the steps as drastically as it did to make sure that any error lurking in the wings or under the carpet were eradicated. You must admit that the reaction was pretty drastic.

"Cannot teach error". "Unbroken line".

Was he a true Pope? Was the line broken?

10,672 posted on 11/07/2007 9:47:35 AM PST by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know nothing.)
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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; irishtenor; Missey_Lucy_Goosey
In any event, I haven’t noticed that any of you are sissies, unlike some around here!

LOLOL!!! Yes, we're "manly" Christians.

er....Yes Dear, I'll vacuum right after I finish the dusting.

10,673 posted on 11/07/2007 9:55:51 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
The Westminster Confession does not presume to know the election status of anyone.

But doesn't it presume to know that God creates innocent babies - born and forever - reprobate?

10,674 posted on 11/07/2007 10:02:35 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: kosta50
The Church always believed that the souls of the departed are in an intermediate state followoing physical death and particular judgment immediately following), and always prayed for the departed souls to ease their discomfort.

The souls of the saved experience discomfort through shame as their unrepented sins are revealed in full and as they stand "naked" before God and all the saints. The period from particular to Final Judgment is a period of purification, through prayers, commemorative services, fasting, etc. not by being roasted to God's "satifaction." The fires they feel are not real fires, but God's love which burns all sinners confornted with Truth.

Dear Kosta, This actually explains purgation of sin very well.

10,675 posted on 11/07/2007 10:27:50 AM PST by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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To: D-fendr
But doesn't it presume to know that God creates innocent babies - born and forever - reprobate?

No, the confession gives us no idea since it is impossible to know the mind of God.


10,676 posted on 11/07/2007 10:39:39 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

It seems to say so there in IV - “Others...”?


10,677 posted on 11/07/2007 10:41:39 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

It simply saying that only the elected go to heaven. Others do not. Who those “others” are we don’t know.

The website has scriptural references if you need it.


10,678 posted on 11/07/2007 10:47:38 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

I’m not being clear, my apologies.

I don’t mean to say that in Calvinism, you know specifically who is born reprobate and who is born elect. But that some are born reprobate and forever reprobate.

This would be a true statement, yes?


10,679 posted on 11/07/2007 11:00:11 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
I don’t mean to say that in Calvinism, you know specifically who is born reprobate and who is born elect. But that some are born reprobate and forever reprobate.

What you are implying is that some people are born elected and some are born reprobates, which is not technically correct. All people are born in a fallen, wicked state. God, by His grace and mercy, elects some people according to His divine purpose that has nothing to do with what we do. Moses, Jeremiah, Abraham, Paul are a few examples of God coming to them, not them coming to God.

The rest God passes by; why we don't know. Two people hear the same sermon, one believes and one doesn't. God gave one faith. The other He did not. There is nothing that we have that hasn't been given to us. That is how God works.

Everyone God wants saved will be saved.

10,680 posted on 11/07/2007 12:22:22 PM PST by HarleyD (97% of all statistics are made up.)
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