Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Wednesday, 11 July 2007
Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.
The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.
It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.
One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.
First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.
The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.
The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.
All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.
Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.
How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.
But we Orthodox do not reject Apostolic teaching.
Sure you do, you have rejected every single passage from the Apostolic teaching I have presented you, which is as celar as clear can be, that the Sacrifice of Christ was propitiatory.
We have preserved it inviolate for 2000 years. I'm trust you will forgive me if I find your notions "innovative".
Those "notions" are not "innovative", unless you are now claiming that the clear Apostolic teachings of Scripture are "innovative".
I've already answered that. I suggest you go back and read it again, and again, until you understand what was actually said. I might suggest you read them slower this time.
That's easy. Read this; it will tell you what Orthodoxy believes about atonement:
Yes, I know the EO position of the Atonement conquering death.
Why omit the propitiation?
Why Omit everything in the OT and NT Apostolic teaching on the propitiatory nature of the Atonement?
“that the Sacrifice of Christ was propitiatory.”
Why do you say that Orthodoxy rejects the notion that Christ’s sacrifice was propitiary? Of course it was. Reread the Paschal Sermon. Its shorter than +Athanasius the Great “On the Incarnation”, but you could read that too. In fact, that might be a good idea.
That's easy. Read this; it will tell you what Orthodoxy believes about atonement:
Yes, I know the EO position of the Atonement conquering death.
Why omit the propitiation?
Why Omit everything in the OT and NT Apostolic teaching on the propitiatory nature of the Atonement?
And even go so far as to call God a monster for the great love He has for the Elect displayed in the offering of Christ as the sacrificial Lamb of God, by whose Blood is paid the just penalty we owe for our sin. Amazing and sad.
Explain, then, the tree in the garden. Did not God put it there? Did not God put it there for a purpose? What was that purpose other than to allow man to sin? It was ALL part of God’s perfect plan.
Two things, (1) changes to the Ecumenical Council's decisions cannot be made by local councils or patriarchates, but only by another Ecumenical Council. Chances are that would not happen except to expand on the truth already established by the previous Ecumenical Councils.
(2) The original word used in the Creed in Greek is not to "send." The Greek word implies the origin. The Latin word procedere used in the Creed does not.
Additional problems with filioque involve suggestion of double origin as expressed in the west. This violates the monarchy of the Father who is the cause of everything and all including divinity, and who is the only Hypostasis without cause.
Furthermore, the New testament is crystal clear that the Holy Spirit, Who proceeds (originates in Greek) from the Father is sent to the Son (likewise the Son seds Him back to the Father). But the Holy Spirit, a Lord, and Giver of Life, as regards His existence preceeds only from the Father. That is the baseline truth revealed to us about the eternal origin of the Spirit, just as the baseline truth about the origin of the Son is that the Word (Logos) is eternally begotten from the Father.
Thank you.
***Why do you think Jesus Himself taught so much on hell?***
He knew he was going there to visit?
Gee, it couldn't have been your comments of the God of the Bible being a "monster", saying I worship a "monster", for God's Wrath against sin being satisfied by the Blood of His Own Son as payment for our sins. Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, it couldn't be anything like that, now could it?
Gee, it couldn't have been your comments of the God of the Bible being a "monster", saying I worship a "monster", for God's Wrath against sin being satisfied by the Blood of His Own Son as payment for our sins. Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, it couldn't be anything like that, now could it?
Or was he misstating the EO position again?
Truth hurts, I know. :)
However, it's better than anything-goes "churches."
He knew he was going there to visit?
Or ran out of things to teach. LOL
Sort of like having to go visit the in-laws. Ya gotta go, but you don’t want to?
Truth hurts, I know. :)
No, I love the truth, and the truth is NEITHER the EO or Roman church are the one, only, true church, both are equally pompous and prideful, and wrong on a great many things.
And there is where the EO gets into trouble. The "origin" is in the context of the sending, not of ontology.
I think that is what I said, when I said that Rome unilaterally included the filoque in violation of the canons of Nicea and Chalcedon which prohibited the altering of the Nicene Creed, prohibitions which carried the penalty of anathema, thus placing Rome under anthema for it's violation.
Read it again, that is what I said.
“By the way, anything from the Pseudo Council of Florence will get you exactly nowhere with us Orthodox”
Dear Brother,I was not trying to get anywhere, I was only trying to understand the orthodox view.
Please don’t “read into it” as me knowing it all,because I don’t.
“Gee, it couldn’t have been your comments of the God of the Bible being a “monster”, saying I worship a “monster”, for God’s Wrath against sin being satisfied by the Blood of His Own Son as payment for our sins. Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, it couldn’t be anything like that, now could it?”
Shouldn’t be. The theology of The Church is quite clear, MLG, as is the error of the West in worshiping a blood thirsty monster. Unless of course I’ve got it wrong and the West really doesn’t believe that Christ’s bloody sacrifice was meant to propitiate a wrathful and blood lusting god. Tell me I got it wrong, MLG. :)
Well, relativism by definition reject absolute truth. And Porestantism is founded on relativism. The Protestants themselves can't agree on anything because every Prtestant believes something different and claims his personal belief to be the real truth while assailing "traditions of men."
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