Protestants aren't proper Christians, says Pope

Daily Mail ^ | 11th July 2007 | SIMON CALDWELL

[indcons]

Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value.

Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism.

Roman Catholic- Anglican relations are already strained over the Church of England's plans to ordain homosexuals and women as bishops. The claims came in a document, from a Vatican watchdog which was approved by the Pope.

It said the branches of Christianity formed after the split with Rome at the Reformation could not be called churches "in the proper sense" because they broke with a succession of popes who dated back to St Peter.

As a result, it went on, Protestant churches have "no sacramental priesthood", effectively reaffirming the controversial Catholic position that Anglican holy orders are worthless.

The document claimed the Catholic church was the "one true church of Christ".

Pope Benedict's commitment to the hardline teaching comes days after he reinstated the Mass in Latin, which was sidelined in the 1960s in an attempt to modernise.

The timing of the announcement fuelled speculation that the pontiff - regarded as an arch-conservative before his election in 2005 - is finally beginning to impose his views on the Catholic Church.

The Vatican said it was restating the position set out by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 2000 in a document called Domine Jesus because theologians continued to misunderstand it.

At that time, Anglican leaders from around the world made their anger felt by snubbing an invitation to join Pope John Paul II as he proclaimed St Thomas More the patron saint of politicians.

Bishop Wolfgang Huber, head of the Evangelical Church in Germany, said the Vatican document effectively downgraded Protestant churches and would make ecumenical relations more difficult.

He said the pronouncement repeated the "offensive statements" of the 2000 document and was a "missed opportunity" to patch up relations with Protestants.

[Patriotic1]

He NEVER said only Catholics go to heaven. It was not like that before VII, not after, nor now.

If you’re going to criticize, make sure what you are criticizing is what was actually said.

[Quix]

Jews and Muslims are at precisely the same place when it comes to God because they fail to recognize Jesus Christ as divine Savior and Lord.

= = =

It still boggles my mind that any Bible believing Christian can believe such an assertion at all.

God made very clear that the Blood Children of Abraham, Isac and Jacob had an eternal covenant with Him.

Further, that while we are the chronic Covenant breakers, HE IS THE COVENANT KEEPER.

HE WILL KEEP HIS COVENANT WITH THEM AND WORK IT OUT THAT THEY TOO SHALL RECOGNIZE THEIR TRUE MESSIAH . . .

IN HIS WAYS AND TIME.

Tidy little boxed doctrines and traditions of men to the contrary will not stand the whiff of His breath.

[Patriotic1]

He doesn’t want to bring back Trad. Catholicism. He was at VII, and felt that the complete break from the past, especially the way it was implemented in some countries (cough * USA *cough*) was an improper break from the past.

Indeed, we have everything from the reverent Maronite rite to ridiculous polka masses, why not allow the people to have the Tridentine Mass?

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

So what? You obviously haven’t dealt with many So. Baptists.

[P-Marlowe]

One last time, Muslims believe they worship the God of Abraham...

One last time. I don't care what they think they believe, they are worshiping Satan.

It would be a bit presumptuous of me to tell a Muslim that despite what they believe, they really worship the moon or a black rock and not God.

I don't care if it is presumptuous or not. They are worshiping Baal, Beelzebub, Lucifer, Satan, the Anti-Christ.

There is only one God and it is not Allah.

If you believe you worship the same God that the Muslims worship, then you, my friend, are worshiping Satan. It is the the God of Christianity. It is not the God of the Bible. It is "the god of this world."

[P-Marlowe]

It is the the God of Christianity.

Correction:

It is the NOT the God of Christianity.

[FastCoyote]

“Don’t you believe that Christ is God? Don’t you believe that Christ is the God of Abraham? I am sorry, you must not believe that the true religion existed until Christ was born, that is interesting.”

I didn’t say anything of the sort. You miss the point entirely, as is so often your way. If Mormons claim to be the true faith and the book of Mormon predates Christ, then what the Mormons are actually saying (if they are indeed restoring a true church) is that everyone else is a failed Mormon.

I know that is hard to understand, and that is my point - Mormonism thrives on the confusion of terms. But don’t get mad at me, get mad at the apologists.

[FastCoyote]

“Mormon’s believe that Christs gospel was on the earth at various times prior to his birth. “

You should stop trying to call yourselves Christians then, and call yourselves “Holier Than Thou Christians” to distinguish yourselves.

[xzins]

If their god is not Triune, and if their book says their god is NOT triune...goes out of its way to do so...then they are no more addressing the same person than Duncan Hunter and Bill Clinton are the same person.

The following is an Islamic expert commenting on the Trinity. Note the passage from the Koran in the middle of the quote. As you can see, they AND THEIR BOOK reject the Holy Trinity. While Jews are not trinitarian, their book has many trinitarian appearances and lines that the Jews simply don't accept. As Jesus said, "The Lord said unto my Lord..."

Expert: Abo Muhammed Samir Faid

Date: 5/29/2005

Subject: trinity

Question

I want to know, why islam rejects trinity that exists in christianity when they believe that there is only one God but apears in diffrent shapes?

Jesus and the Trinity Do these two belong together? The Bible Never puts them together! www.realtruth.org/Counterfiet_Jesus

Answer

God is One. There is no Trinity. Jesus is a prophet of God, and like all his fellow prophets, he is a human being. We love him, and believe in him, and affirm all of his miracles, bestowed upon him as a favour from his Lord. He called for the worship of God alone and for righteousness - as every prophet of God has done. However, his pure monotheistic message was gradually changed by 'Christians' into a polytheistic one, by transforming Jesus(the servant of God, into a mythological God-incarnate figure to be worshipped alongside God All-Mighty.

Jesus was in a mother's womb. He needed nutrition; he was born and grew up to be a man.A man who needs to eat, walk, sleep, rest, etc.. cannot have Divine Attributes because he is in need and God is Self-Sufficient

Christianity is inherently self-contradictory. It makes no sense that Jesus is both man and God, that God is both one and three, or that an innocent man is crucified so that the guilty can go free.

The term "Son of God" was used metaphorically speaking to those who were godly and pious men. It was never meant to be used literally as the case with Christianity toward Jesus

The Muslim perspective is this: God does not beget sons or daughters as begetting is an animal act reserved for the lower animal functions of sex. Metaphorically, we can all be described as the sons of God as God has created us and He provides for us, but physically He does not beget.

We should first answer this question What is the true word of God about Jesus ? u can find that only in Qur'an the final revelation the only authentic revealed book in the world that has been kept without change

Muslims believe that Jesus was born immaculately, and through the same power which had brought Eve to life and Adam into being without a father or a mother

Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an 3:59).

And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of everything. (Quran 5:116,117)

Jesus' giving life to the dead, healing the blind and the lepers All accepted. They were performed through the will of God

Trinity, the divinity of Jesus, the divine son ship of Jesus, and the doctrines of Original Sin and Atonement. All of these were made by men. Jesus prophesied that people would worship him uselessly and believe in doctrines made by men: "But in vain they do worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:9).

'Sue' Watson - Former pastor, missionary, professor. Master's degree in Divinity who has Embraced Islam said ; It is interesting to note that there were bishops during the first three hundred years of the Church that were teaching as the Muslim believes that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet and teacher!! It was only after the conversion of Emperor Constantine that he was the one to call and introduce the doctrine of the Trinity. He a convert to Christianity who knew nothing of this religion introduced a paganistic concept that goes back to Babylonian times

If you really examine the Christian teaching on human sin with an open mind, you will see that they say that God sacrificed His only son to atone for the sins of mankind, and that this son was a god. If it was true that he was a god who was beaten, insulted and crucified, and died, then this doctrine contains elements of blasphemy because it accuses God of weakness and helplessness. Is God really incapable of forgiving the sins of all His servants with just one word?

[maine-iac7]

Where is it stated that James was the blood brother of Jesus?

for starters:

Matt 13:55 and Mark 6:3

55"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?

You might enjoy this book - LOTS of bibliography.

or

or

To quote a bit from the opening of the last book: "JAMES...The downplaying of James in church tradition.

"Of all the characters of the period of Palestinian history ending with the destrstruction of the Second Temple...one of the most under esteemed and certainly underestimated is James the brother of Jesus.

James has been systematically ignored by both Christian and Jewish scholars alike ....his very existence being a source of embarrassment.""

Remember, the same was done to Mary Magdalene, branded a prostitute - until people got serious about really reading the Bible and forcing this great and deliberate lie to be reversed - and the RC to apologize for it...just recently.

The LIGHT is increasing and there will be many to whom Jesus will say: "22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Matthew 7:22-23

[lupie]

all I can tell you is that they believe that they worship the same God that Abraham worshiped.

So? What does it matter what they say. Those who DO worship the One True God KNOW that they Muslims don't. That is the point.

[maine-iac7]

poupouri of Popery.

LOL

Well, 'tis the job of pontiffs to pontificate, n'est pas?

[redgolum]

One of the RC’s hereon who walks in Holy Spirit significantly—as I understand it—believes that the RC edifice is scheduled for some dramatic wake-up calls by God. We shall see. certainly the whole of Christendom needs it. This is an era when spiritual leaders and governmental leaders are falling all over themselves trying to conform themselves to the spirit and goals of our time—globalism led by satan. There are consequences for that—serious consequences. They will appear increasingly dramatically in their fitting times.

My Catholic mother in law talked of this when we were there a few weekends ago. But let us be honest, most of Western civilization (if what we have can be called civilized) is a stench before God right now. We won't be allowed to continue much longer till the chastisement.

[lupie]

Thanks for the documentation xzins. It is very well known that the deny the deity of the Lord. Anyone Christian leader who knows anything at all about Islam has to know this. YET, the pope says they worship the same God. I just don’t understand why this does not cause major problems with his followers, those who would kiss his ring if they were in his presence. They either have to think he does not know much about the One True God, or they are unable to think for themselves. Where is the outrage? I don’t get it.

[maine-iac7]

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." -- Matthew 23:9

LOL

Why do you think the RC would not allow their people/sheeple to read the Bible for themselves? It was a capitol offense.

Why did they do everything they could to keep Martin Luther from translating into German - in Germany?

And they didn't much care for it being put into English either.

The New Testament is rife with sayings of Jesus that totally refute so much of their doctrine.

Even further, I agree with Thomas Jefferson: read only the words of Jesus = red letter versions are great for this.

I wonder that many of those who "preach in His name" are not going to mightily surprised one day.

[maine-iac7]

If James was Mary's son why would Jesus give His Mother to John?

the Bible says; "the disciple there whom he loved" - no where does it name this disciple as John - (anymore than other passages ever named MM as a prostitute)There are many suppositions as to who this disciple might be...can't state as fact it was John just because it fits ones agenda

The RC has twisted itself inside out to cover up personal relationships with Jesus, as an actual bloodline would introduce serious questions of postulations made by the church to prop up it's claim of supremacy

[redgolum]

If you read Eusbisus (sp.), he talked of relatives of Jesus in the early church. Many were bishops of Jerusalem. Most died out around time of the revolt in 70 AD, but there were mentions of them for a century or two after that.

[maine-iac7]

Here’s where ya started goin wrong: “blood brother of Jesus..”

LOL, well, I'm far from alone...see my post # 330 for starters. and do some independent research.

Unfortunately for a lot of dogma=driven institutions, the LIGHT of knowledge and truth is getting brighter and more accessible every day. The Internet is one of the greatest tools for information, education in the history of mankind.

People are no longer dependent upon the Pontificators for knowledge. ONe can use their God-given minds to research, study, digest, learn, disseminate - and realize, that as Jesus told us, NO ONE person is above another. We are All equal in Our Father's eyes and we have equal access to Him - as equal as a pastor or a pontiff - through our Brother, Jesus.

Jesus said so. So I believe it.

Brother of Jesus? See post # 330

[blue-duncan]

That’s just baloney and poor exegesis. Using your tools Mary is not the mother of Jesus because Eve is the “mother” of us all, Jerusalem is the “mother” of us all, Babylon is the “mother” of harlots, and Mary is the “mother” of John.

Jesus is not the “son” of Mary because He is the “son” of Joseph and we know that isn’t so. John is also the “son” of Mary so we can’t be sure if the writers are just using “son” metaphorically.

John is not the “brother” of James and Peter is not the “brother” of Andrew because we know that “brother” is used universally to mean friends and near relatives.

Father of course can mean many things like “father” of lights, we aren’t to call any man “father” here, there’s our “father David”, “father” Abraham, “father” Jacob, “father” Isaac, your “father” the Devil, “father” of many nations.

Based on your logic we can’t be sure of any relationships in the scripture since they are used for blood relatives, close relatives, far relatives, close associates, and concepts.

So please explain, based on your exegesis, how you arrived at Mary being the genealogical mother of Jesus?

[maine-iac7]

Do you mean the one in my post # 303?

Keep in mind that, as I was not around 1,000 yrs ago when the artist painted this (honest) I can only give my suppositions based on what I understand of both iconic painting and the methods the artist, writers, troubadours, etc used at the time - to get out the message without getting roasted on the stake.

In addition, besides being an artist, I am a writer - which means I am insatiably nosy and always have my nose in a book - and/or, these days, 'surfing' for any and all interesting studies and information that might shed more LIGHT ;o)

(Ain't this fun?)