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To: DreamsofPolycarp
Actually, we have four as Amos mentions the remnant of Edom, and the heathen. You reference further the residue of men and the Gentiles.

Actually the "remnant of Edom" is the "residue of men" [The word "Edom" is probably a miscopying of the word "adam" meaning "man"] and "heathen, Gentiles, nations" is how the Hebrew "goy" is translated. So still just two groups.

306 posted on 05/24/2007 3:19:20 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip
This is really not important, but just so you can see how I approach the text: A couple of reasons why I believe that the NT has the "incorrect" text, so that EDOM in the Old Testament is correct, and James has the "incorrect" (quotes deliberate) version.
1) Even though the vowel points did not come till about 900 AD, when Hebrew was becoming a dead language and the Masoretes began vowel pointing, they still knew how the words were pointed. they used the three point and not the aspirated or non aspirated "ah"
2)Note the vav? אֱדֹום֙ It survived over 1600 years. Both the presence of the vav and the vowel points are significant to me.
3) The septuagint is less clear having lacunae at this juncture. all we have is πάντα τ???? (panta, meaning "all",) with the first letter of an indefinite article tau. If the word were actually "men" the article would not have been "to" or "ton" but "ho" and the omicron would have been the letter surviving.
4) The vulgate is ut possideant reliquias Idumeae, Clearly "EDOM"

With that in mind, I believe that probably either 1) James had a text where the vav was missing , thus reading אדם
OR 2) (my preference, since I am just too "married" to inerrancy of the scriptures and tend to "cheat" in that direction whenever I get a problem like that James was working with a kind of "LIVING BIBLE" paraphrase he was doing on the fly, and giving the text its true meaning in kind of a sermonic manner, rather than simply quoting it.

You are right of course about הַגֹּויִ֔ם plural "im" translated "heathen"
I hope you know I was just yanking your chain a bit. I didn't really think there were 4 different kinds of folks here. As a matter of fact, I don't see how you distinguish between הַגֹּויִ֔ם and אֱדֹום֙ I have always viewed The edomites as "standing in" as a symbol for all heathen. They certainly do in other spots.

DANG! It has been 30 years since I did any Haybru with Brother Billy Bob's Traveling Salvation Show Review. I am surprised I can still read the stuff! It is not exactly in high demand for commodity traders, loan brokers, insurance brokers and money managers (my hats, depending on what day you get me).

cheers,
DoP

318 posted on 05/24/2007 7:51:23 PM PDT by DreamsofPolycarp (Ron Paul in '08)
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