Posted on 05/21/2007 1:31:42 AM PDT by bruinbirdman
Thanks
Your arguement is much like the Jehovah Witnesses claim that the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible. You need to bone up on your bible tools before making this kind of arguement.
For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17.
While I won't go so far as to say the "reigning sentiment" was chiliast, it is true that MANY of the fervent church fathers believed in a literal earthly millenium. They also were also universally paedobaptist as well. From this set of facts I derive two things:
1) People often "proof text" the early fathers, simply combing their writings for support, not understanding,
2) People find support that isn't there. The early chiliasts were NOT the dispensational types and never taught a secret coming which will leave Israel to be converted and then "fulfill" the covenant stipulations and then receive the blessings. Such a view would have been laughed at. The premils were more like George Eldon Ladd, a premil who denied emphatically the doctrine of a "secret rapture" or a two fold coming of Jesus. Nonsense about "coming in the clouds" vs touching down on Mt Olives as "evidence" of two different comings is fanciful monkey business unworthy of serious discussion. I came down through the clouds in my last airplane decent and then touched down in Raleigh NC, and no one says that was two different trips. It is amazing the monkeyshines people will try in order to protect their favorite theories!
I thought the dispensational mantra was "literal whenever possible"
Funny, I always thought that was evidence for the normally held view for 1800 years that Christ would come ONCE, and that in his coming would gather all his people to himself.
Where in this passage do you find that view refuted?
“But as it is written, ‘Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him’” (1 Cor 2:9).
:)
Such a view has NO biblical support.
However, the idea that the people of God will be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air as he comes to judge the world is not questioned by any bible believing non-dispensationalist.
.....You CHANGED the quote.
I deliberately inserted a word to make the issue clear.
That’s a big time NO-NO.
Actually, all I did by doing so was define the issue at debate here. Check what I said and you can see I am not being dishonest, just clarifying
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:36).
This verse seems to indicate that escape isnt just a hopeful pipe dream as some suggest, but an actual an option.
Not to mention these:
“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (1 Thessalonians 1:10).
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth “ (Revelation 3:10).
http://www.historicist.com/articles2/rapture.htm
I do not pretend to be eloquent on these thing but the above reference is an excellent article agreeing with the original posted article which quotes my former pastor as well. I thought I was on a thread to discuss the views in the posted article not a thread hijacked by scofield dispensationalists.
Outside of dispensation theology (which btw teaches salvation by grace thru faith in all ages/dispensations), most if not all other Christian theologies consider the church to be “spiritual Isreal”.
All very well and good, but if God is willing to change his mind regarding the promises he made to the nation of Isreal (because of their sin), then what is to stop God from changing his mind regarding the promises made to the church (because of the church’s sin?).
No one, not Isreal, the not the Church, no one, no man deserves God’s grace. It is a gift. If God cannot be trusted to give us His word and to keep His Word then there is no hope.
R.C. Sproul et el has too much invested in referring to the church as “spititual Isreal” so he has to reject the pre-mil view, which is a real shame.
Tom
“It may be because it is so early in the morning...but this doesn’t make sense to me...could you rephrase it?”
On the other hand, it might just be saying that
[ a reading of the 2Thess passage and the Apocalypse that did not exist before the early 19th century Plymouth Brethren intererpretations popularized by John Darby caught on in Britain and the USA ]
is not true.
See the links referenced in my original post for details of the origins of the novel “dispensational” reading of these Scripture passages. Too many shallow and careless readers imagine that their own reading is the only possible way to read the text. They end up making their interpretation canonical, and thus repeat the misteps of the pharisees, who made their traditions into divine writ.
“No one denies a “rapture.” I inserted the word “secret” because it is a hallmark of the unbiblical teaching “
I don’t argue for a “secret” rapture.
*****
“the geopolitical nation of Jews residing in Palestine... Such a view has NO biblical support.”
Clearly there is biblical support for a, “geopolitical nation of Jews residing in Palestine” around the time of Christ’s return.
Ive only began to study the wedding and bride, and how the Jewish wedding is tied to the rapture.
Fascinating stuff. I couldnt find an article I wanted to show you.
A couple of good unrelated quotes from Jack Kinsella:
“The Tribulation serves two main purposes; the first is the judgment of God on a Christ-rejecting world. The second is the national redemption of Israel. By definition, Church-Age believers have NOT rejected Christ, and need no further redemption.
If the Church goes through the Tribulation, then Jesus’ promise of a Comforter until He comes needs rewriting to say, “I will send you a Comforter Who will stay with you until you need Him most, and then you are on your own for seven years.”
Wow. He’s never really read Revelation before... But when some guy named “Mike” helps him interpret it, he goes against 2 millenia of Christian interpretation.
Yeah, I can really trust this writer to help me understand the NT.
In addition, and simply put,
At the rapture, the belivers (dead in Christ) meet Jesus in the air. At the second coming, Jesus returns to the earth to judge and usher in the Kingdom centered in Jerusalem. Two different events.
While I believe that the Church Saints are with Christ during the 7 yr. tribulation, I think the comforter Jesus promised is the Holy Spirit which we have had since Acts Ch 2.
I thought I was on a thread to discuss the views in the posted article not a thread hijacked by scofield dispensationalists.
I was responding to a comment/challenge YOU made. Don't complain about hijacking if you are particpating in the hijacking.
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