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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; annalex
Obviously, if God gives the will to some and withholds that will from others, it is not that some won't but it is that they can't make a decision.

You are looking at it backwards. Its not that they can't make the decision, its that God knew they would not want to make the decision.

What good is offering salvation to all men if some can't choose to accept it because they were never given the will to do so?

They are given the will to do so, but they do not want to be saved. God foreknows their not wanting to be saved and creates a world where that happens by their own free choice. You seem to assume that it is a default condition in humans to want salvation, but cursory experience with a cross-section of humanity will quickly reveal this is not so. Surely you have run into people who almost delight at the thought of their own damnation, frequently stating things like "well, I'm going to hell anyway", or "see you in hell", and the like.

What good is offering salvation to all men if some can't choose to accept it because they were never given the will to do so? This is like giving half of your children the money to buy candy and saying the other half "refused" to buy it!

But that isn't what I said!

Lets look at Judas. God made the world knowing Judas would be lost, but giving him sufficient grace that he could have saved himself if he had wanted to, although he did not. That is the meaning of predestination - God made a world foreknowing the salvation of some and the damnation of others - "those he foreknew he also predestined". But He also knew that if Judas had been given certain additional holy inspirations, he would infallibly have been saved. That Judas was lost is not because God did not give him the means. But God made Judas knowing he would be lost by his (Judas') own free choice, and also not chosing to ensure Judas' salvation. God did not choose to make Judas be damned. Judas chose to damn Judas. God did not choose to make Judas unable to be saved. Judas could have been saved if he wished it, although God foreknew he did not wish it. It is Judas who chose to neglect the gifts of God, not God who neglected to give them.

To go to you kids and candy example, think of it this way, with the kids being the 12 Apostles, and the candy being salvation, which costs $1. God gives all the Apostles $1. 11 of them choose to spend it on salvation candy. Judas sticks his in his pocket, because he thinks he can't afford the candy because he always feels short of money, so now that he has some, he's just going to hold onto it, rather than using it like God intended. God could have given Judas $2, so that Judas would feel like he had enough money to both buy the candy and stick some in his pocket, but he doesn't. So God both could have saved Judas had He wanted to make such a world, and Judas could have saved himself, had he used the grace of God wisely. The damnation of Judas, however, is not because God did not provide the means, but because Judas didn't wish it.

The deeper question is why Judas is made such an example of despite the grace of having 3+ years in personal companionship with Jesus on earth. A little thought reveals one possible reason. Watching the actions of the other 11, all but one of them fled and denied Christ in His hour of need, and the whole of Jerusalem came out to revile and mock Him. It seems quite reasonable to suppose that Judas was the next best possible choice after 9 Apostles fleeing and one Apostle fleeing and doubting, and that had anyone else (including ourselves) been made Apostle #12 in the milieu of AD 33, they would only have done worse than Judas managed. One need only look at the early careers of the multitude that would make up the early Church (forming a few weeks earlier a cruel and bloodthirsty mob demanding the mocking and crucifixion of Innocence itself after several failed stonings), or of the great Apostle to the Gentiles (spending years of his life attempting to exterminate the Church and all Christians), or of the general population of the Empire (urgently attempting to send all Christians to an early death for threatening the social structure of paganism).

Your view makes for a partial God and the Bible tells us in plain language on numerous occasions that God is impartial.

In fact, the damnation of Judas is a show of God's impartiality. Judas was given the same sufficient grace that he could have been saved had he wished it. Judas was lost because God was not impartial towards him, giving him the extra graces He knew would be needed to certainly effect his salvation.

God is impartial. St. Paul teaches us of God that He assures us "my grace is sufficient for you". Because of that pledge, the Church prays to God to "number us among the flock of Thy elect". But God also (fore)knows His own, which is why there is a "Book of Life". God has created a world where some people will reconcile themselves with God and others will not. And He is not in suspense as to the outcome because by creating the world He also predetermined the outcome human free will would effect.

God died for Judas, but His death was not efficient for him.

God offers salvation to all. We choose or refuse His gracious offer based on our free will. It is God who saves us; but it is us who decide if we shall take the train that leads us to God or to hell.

I agree, provided you are not asserting that the number of the elect is not fixed, because Jesus assures us of the elect "I will never erase his name from the book of life" (Rev. 3.5), or that their names are not unknown to God from the foundations of the world with certainty because St. John says that the followers of Antichrist are "all those whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life" (Rev. 13.8). The Semipelagians implied that the universal salvific will of God means that God predestines all, and that the eventual damnation of some is because the number of the elect is not fixed, and that it is only determined by the free will of man, rather than by the election of God.

I say this because you are neglecting to state that God foreknows all that will happen. Because of God's foreknowledge, we are indebted to God to the result if it is good, because we could never have accomplished salvation on our own - it was necessary for God to give us the means to accomplish it (cf. 1 Cor. 4.7). That's why the Church prays:

"Direct, we beseech Thee, O Lord, our actions by Thy holy inspirations, and carry them on by Thy gracious assistance; that every prayer and work of ours may always begin from Thee, and through Thee be happily ended."

But we are indebted to ourselves if it is bad, because we were not lacking the means to be saved, only the good use of them because of our own perverted will.

26 posted on 05/13/2007 9:23:17 PM PDT by Andrew Byler
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To: Andrew Byler; Kolokotronis; annalex
You are looking at it backwards. Its not that they can't make the decision, its that God knew they would not want to make the decision

That's not what you said. I am quoting from your post #22: "As to those who are saved, while they certainly willed it, it was God who gave them the will".

The only conclusion one can draw from this is that those who are not saved is because God did not give them the will. This conclusion is consistent with the notion that all the credit goes to God for everything, but it flies in the face of your earlier statement that "God desires all men to be saved, and gives all men the means to be saved."

They are given the will to do so, but they do not want to be saved

I agree, but that's not the conclusion one can draw from your earlier statements. If you are saying that those who are saved is because God gave them the will, then those who are lost have not been given that will, ergo they cannot choose, can they?

God foreknows their not wanting to be saved

But the only reason they want or don't want to be saved, according to you statment in bold above, is because God either gives or deprives them of the will to want to be saved.

You are still suggesting that God created some of us specifically for salvation and others for perdition simply because those who are saved are given the will to be saved, and those who are lost (by necessity) are not.

God doesn't have "foreknowledge," as He does not exist in time. He simply our choices as everything we do is in His "present." It's like giving your children each a $1 bill and seeing what they did with it.

Surely you have run into people who almost delight at the thought of their own damnation, frequently stating things like "well, I'm going to hell anyway", or "see you in hell", and the like.

They have (unknowingly) been deceived by the master of all lies. They are not lost. They are led to believe they are. Yet God allows their deception.

God made a world foreknowing the salvation of some and the damnation of others

(1) God doesn't have foreknowledge, but simply knoweldge because He is timeless; (2) if the saved are given the will and the lost are not, then our salvation or perdition is God's will (intent) and not "foreknowledge."

The only way that our salvation or damnation is "foreknown" to God is if our will conforms to His will either way, which maskes our free will an oxymoron.

Our end-stage is known to Him because He can see what choices we will have made in our lifetime even before we have made them (and not because he predestined what our choices will be).

But God made Judas knowing he would be lost by his (Judas') own free choice

That's pretty much saying He created Judas so that he may fail!

It is Judas who chose to neglect the gifts of God, not God who neglected to give them.

However, Judas could not have been created with the knowledge that he will fail, or else he failed not because of his free will but because God ordained it so.

If that is true, than we can say the same thing about Adam. He was created with a potential to choose good or evil, but not with a predetermined outcome. Otherwise, Adam's fate is not a result of his choice(s), but of God's will.

God knows the outcome of their choices by looking at time in its totality, not because he ordians what they will choose. By knowing the outcome He "foreknowes" but He does not create us with predestined choices.

In fact, the damnation of Judas is a show of God's impartiality. Judas was given the same sufficient grace that he could have been saved had he wished it.

Impartiality is not always obvious. Infants who die are a perfect example that not everyone is given a chance to choose and use free will. They are either saved or damned by no choice of their own. How impartial is that?

God died for Judas, but His death was not efficient for him

I find that strange, because all indications are that Judas repented.

I agree, provided you are not asserting that the number of the elect is not fixed, because Jesus assures us of the elect "I will never erase his name from the book of life" (Rev. 3.5)

This clearly contradicts biblical statements to the contrary, such as "May they be blotted out of the book of life. And may they not be recorded with the righteous." [Ps 69:28]

27 posted on 05/14/2007 7:01:30 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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