I think at least as good an argument can be made that charismania is necessarily linked to psychosis, personality disorder, and other bad stuff as the arqument that conventional Catholic cultic behavior can lead to polytheism and idolatry.
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As my dissertation literature review and data demonstrated, the above statement is simply wholesale untrue, false, erroneous, wrong, etc. Knowingly perpetuating such a falsehood is not particularly impressive.
There is no signifcant correlation and certainly no causal relationship above national norms for Charismatics and Pentecostals as a group vis a vis psychosis or any other mental illness. All contentions otherwise are false at best or deliberate lies.
I have persistently noted that ALL CHRISTIAN GROUPS have idolatry and a list of other human sins and spiritual, perversions etc. to some degree. This appears to have escaped your notice multiple times that I’ve persistently asserted this.
I tend to be somewhat ready to quick to articulate gross problems with RC groups for at least a couple of reasons.
1. They seem to have a very deeply entrenched and broad blindness to their own flaws. The Scripture exhorts us to warn our brothers. I prefer to follow Scripture instead of Mad Dawg’s preferences.
2. The lurkers deserve to have the other side of the coin; the alternate perspective presented just as forcefully as the RC position is presented.
3. I have hesitated somewhat to get into the post beginning this thread very forthrightly. You have convinced me, I must do so.
4. I have historically since at least 1966ish, if not before, been relatively quick to call spiritual groups and leaders to the Biblical standard whenever, wherever, however they seemed to be violating them grossly, wholesale, horrifically. I don’t anticipate stopping being responsive to the press in my spirit and heart in such matters. I have done and do this first and foremost in my own particular current group at the time. However, when pressed strongly in my spirit, I can rise to the occasion and challenge to articulate hogwash and gross hypocrisy wherever and let the chips fall where they may.
5. I have endeavored since your kind solicitations to be as charitable in tone and wording as I can be. You have largely accomplished that. I suppose it is your perogative to throw all that in the trash but it seems rather silly to do so.
6. My increased earnestness toward charity in tone and wording has not necessarily been matched or met by folks on the other side of many issues. I don’t observe your ire as publically toward them nor as quickly, if at all. Is the double standard alive and well at your house?
7. The article at the beginning of this thread is a challenging one. But sweeping it under the rug is neither honest nor Christian. We must deal with it. Hopefully, we can deal with it charitably and honestly. But it is cowardly not to deal with it. And Scripture is clear that cowards will join homosexuals and other gross sinners in hell.
8. From my perspective, the RC brothers and sisters come to virtually any thread which touches on their ‘sacred’ group with a pile of chips on their shoulders daring anyone to say anything that will in the slightest offend them. Then, they are quick to squeal to high heaven as though their porker was stuck to the quick, the heart. Of course, other Christian groups seem not to be considered worthy of screaming or protesting much at all when RC’s rail at them most self-righteously, haughtily and intensely and even harshly. That kind of double standard is not impressive nor something I care to copy nor kowtow to.
9. It seems to me that we have a very interesting challenge here on the FR religion forum. It is a challenge that God has placed before the Christian Church as a whole. Will we demonstrate in our relationships with one another that we are Christians by our Love, or will we not.
10. As is known, I’m convinced these are the END TIMES. Further, I’m convinced that where Christian groups will cooperate UNDER THE LEADERSHIP AND GUIDANCE OF HOLY SPIRIT—not in some mindless globalist false ecumunicism—but where HOLY SPIRIT TRULY LEADS AND ALL THE CHRISTIANS OF ALL STRIPES IN THE AREA FOLLOW IN EARNEST IN HOLY SPIRIT—THEN, GOD WILL UNCOMMONLY PROTECT, PROVIDE, LEAD, BLESS.
11. Otherwise, famines, pestilance, floods, drought, quakes and many other calamities will befall those geographic areas wherein Christians refuse to cooperate and show love to one another. Of course, such lack of cooperation and love is ALWAYS blamed on THEIR false doctrines etc. I don’t think God is going to be moved by such claims. He has set the standard and He has delcared it’s priority above other far lesser priorities. We have yet to obey very consistently, much less wholesale.
12. TRUTH IN LOVE is the standard. I don’t expect to homoginize FR’s Christians and would consider it a tragedy if that resulted. Distinctives serve some purpose that’s somewhat mysterious. Often it seems such distinctives are only used by satan for division and heartache and rebellion against God’s priorities. And, I’m sure that’s often God’s feelings about it, too. But, He COULD have cleaned this mess up a long time ago IF He chose. He has not. So He must have another plan. We shall see.
13. I think in part the diverse groups afford us some supreme tests about obeying His priority to love one another before a hurting world regardless. Few seem to be passing that test.
14. I say again, it is false to accuse me of saying anything very generally about RC’s that I have not said about Pentecostals, Charismatics, Calvinists, Presbyterians, Methodists etc. Pretending otherwise is utterly false.
15. Yes, I think the RC’s have some chronic and very serious blind spots which I persistently articulate. They do the same about what they consider my chronic blind spots. I don’t hear you railing at them for doing so.
16. I have seen better of you. I shall continue to expect better of you.
Blessings,
Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." -- Ecclesiastes 12:13-14"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Bumping you, Brother. Thanks for thinking of me in the ping line!
You answered:
As my dissertation literature review and data demonstrated, the above statement is simply wholesale untrue, false, erroneous, wrong, etc. Knowingly perpetuating such a falsehood is not particularly impressive.
Your dissertation and or the related literature provide a comparison of the incidence and causality of on the one hand Catholic cultic behavior, and polytheism and idolatry with, on the other hand, Pentecostalism and "Psychosis, personality disorder, and other bad stuff"? Or does the dissertation and or literature just discuss Pentecostalism? In any case, do you assert that your dissertation is the last word on the topic, is, you will excuse me, magicsterical in scope and authority, so that no further research need be done?
If you will be so kind, please read the statement with which you are taking issue. You will note that it said "at least as good an argument". It is a comparison only. If there are completely lousy arguments on both sides my statement would be true, and I made it with that possibility very much in mind.
What we have here is a problem with imponderables: Who can easily say one way or the other what is cause, what is effect. Also who can claim to have a sufficiently representative sample to be able to make a categorical statement about Catholicism through history and Pentecostalism. renewal, the charismatic movements, etc. I am VERY doubtful of any statements on EITHER side.
But, as I said, every time someone says that what we do leads to idolatry and the rest, I will talk about the charismatics I have known and the damage they've done -- and the way they used their religious persuasion as cover. I won't enjoy it, but I'll do it. I tried the other tack. Now I will just reflect back what I get. You have your research. I have my experience. I'm gonna tell what my lyin' eyes saw.
Or, on the other hand, we could try to avoid purposefully mocking and disparaging remarks and careless and tendentious characterizations of what we think the other side believes.