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To: Kolokotronis
The "Roman Catholic Church", at least the Church caled that, didn't exist until after the Great Schism. Before that it was simply the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church, or so the Fathers called it.

And the Fathers who called it that were right but also a little idealistic. There were several clues early on that the small "c" was destined to become the big "C" with "Roman" in front it. One was when the Bishop of Rome circa 380 AD began to refer to himself as the "Pontiff" and the other was Augustine's anointing of Rome as the City of God. The handwriting was on the wall ---

212 posted on 03/04/2007 11:49:05 AM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Uncle Chip

Have you ever read Augustine? You obviously missed the entire point of City of God. The City of God is NOT Rome.


227 posted on 03/04/2007 11:59:31 AM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Uncle Chip
Early belief in the Church is that Jesus granted Peter jurisdiction over the Church. Focusing on an example of Peter's astuteness, St. Clement of Alexandria, [19] in "Who is the Rich man that is Saved", writes of "the blessed Peter, the chosen, the pre-eminent, the first of the disciples, for whom alone and Himself the Saviour paid tribute, [who] quickly seized and comprehended the saying" (Ch. 21), referring to Mk 10:28. Tertullian, [20] while examining Scriptural teachings, legal precedents, and dogma surrounding monogamy and marriage (post A.D. 213), says of Peter, "Monogamist I am led to presume him by consideration of the Church, which, built upon him..." ("On Monogamy", Ch. 8): his certainty that the Church is built especially upon Peter is such that he simply refers to it in the context of another discussion. In a slightly later text (A.D. 220) "On Modesty", Tertullian writes at length about the significance of Matthew 16:18-19, "On this rock I will build my Church" and similar, emphasizing the singular, not plural, right, and condemning "wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter" (Ch. 21). Origen (ca. A.D. 232) wrote also of "Peter, upon whom is built the Church of Christ" (Jurgens §479a). St. Cyprian of Carthage [21] prepared an essay discussing, inter alia, Mt. 16:18-19, titled "On the Unity of the Church" (A.D. 251) in which he strongly associates primacy, unity, the authority of Jesus, and Peter: "On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity" (Jurgens §555-6). Jurgens gives Cyprian as an example of "Papal Primacy being 'implicit' in the early Church."

229 posted on 03/04/2007 12:00:15 PM PST by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: Uncle Chip; Kolokotronis

I had no idea St. Augustine was in on this conspiracy too. LOL.


232 posted on 03/04/2007 12:01:31 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Uncle Chip
"And the Fathers who called it that were right but also a little idealistic."

Oh, I don't know; we Orthodox still call it that.

"There were several clues early on that the small "c" was destined to become the big "C" with "Roman" in front it. One was when the Bishop of Rome circa 380 AD began to refer to himself as the "Pontiff" and the other was Augustine's anointing of Rome as the City of God. The handwriting was on the wall ---"

Well, the Church of Rome was considered the first See of Christendom from very, very early on. When the Fathers declared the Bishop of Rome to be the first among equals of the patriarchs, they weren't proclaiming anything new or innovative. The Latin Church asserts that this is because of +Peter. Orthodoxy asserts this is because Rome was the capitol of the Empire. I'm Orthodox, so I ascribe to the latter. That seems to make sense in light of the fact that +Peter was bishop of +Antioch before he ever went to Rome. One would think that that fact would, in Latin Church reasoning, make the Patriarch of Antioch the first among equals of The Church, but of course he isn't.

At any rate, the deference shown to Rome for 800-900 years after Pentecost seems to have stemmed from two things; first its recognition as the first See by the Council at Nicea and second, and far more importantly, its comparatively consistent theological orthodoxy during that period. Things began coming apart for the West under the influence of the Franks, a prime excample of which was their insistence on the filioque innovation, an insistence to which Rome eventually subcumbed. While Roman Popes had certainly been jealous of their real or imagined perogatives as the first among equals and zealous in their exercise, it really wasn't until the Popes began trying to impose innovative Frankish theology on the East that the Great Schism became inevitable. In all honesty, UC, its Charlemagne the Protestants should look to rather than Constantine for an imperial source of "Roman Catholicism". What is fascinating, though, is that today it seems the Latin Church is ready to move "back" to the role it played in the pre Schism Church. If that happens, a new, true Ecumenical Council can be held to deal with the dogmas which have arisen in the West since the 7th Ecumenical Council.
246 posted on 03/04/2007 12:11:46 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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