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To: Uncle Chip

Maybe I missed it (this thread is long!) but where do you get this idea about Peter Magus and the Roman church? Who came up with it? What book is it in? Or is it just your deductions from reading certain things?

I noticed that you missed or ignored my post to you (1454) showing that there is a Christian tomb from the second century underneath the High Altar of the Basilica of St. Peter. It is in a mausoleum with other tombs, mostly pagan. Christians from antiquity have believed that Peter was buried under the High Altar, and now they have found a second century Chrisitan tomb there, just where it should be.

You said "There is no early documentary evidence of Peter being in Rome, and if he was there at all, it would have been a visit not a residency there, a far cry from the myth of that 25 year Roman Petrine Bishopric that the RCC propagated for centuries, but only of late has realized to be absurd." Could it be that you don't want to believe that St. Peter was buried in Rome at St. Peter's Basilica (duh! Who else would be buried there?) and that you've just seized upon this theory of Simon Magus because you refuse to believe the Truth? Your theory is the absurd one.

Have you ever thought that maybe these "apocryphal books about the battles between Simon Magus and Simon Peter" were circulated precisely to call into question the authority of the Holy Father? Here it is, 19 centuries later, and you fell for it!


1,840 posted on 03/13/2007 10:09:04 AM PDT by nanetteclaret (Our Lady's Hat Society)
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To: nanetteclaret; Mad Dawg
Here is the article you linked to me at #1454:

In search of St. Peter's Tomb by Dr. Steven Hijmans

On December 23, 1950, in his pre-Christmas broadcast on radio, Pope Pius XII announced the discovery of St. Peter's tomb far below the high altar of St. Peter's basilica in the Vatican. This was the culmination of 10 years of archaeological research under the crypt of the basilica, carried out by two Jesuit archaeologists and their colleagues. Monsignor Ludwig Kaas, the administrator of St. Peter's, had overall authority over the project and reported about it directly to the Pope himself.

Between 1939 and 1949 this team had uncovered an impressive complex of mausoleums under the foundations of the church, dating to the 2nd and 3rd centuries. From their perspective the most spectacular find was, beyond doubt, the small monument under the present altar of the church which, all evidence suggests, was built as early as AD 160 to mark the tomb of St. Peter below it.

But from a scholarly perspective many other aspects of this complex are equally fascinating. It is striking, for instance, that although the monument above St. Peter's tomb is unequivocally Christian, all the mausolea in the necropolis around it were pagan. Accustomed as we are to associating the Roman Empire before Constantine with the persecution of Christians, it is interesting to note that Christians were apparently able to erect such a monument in an otherwise pagan area at this time.

The numerous mausoleums in the necropolis, often quite intact and well-preserved, are also of obvious interest. One mausoleum, designated mausoleum M, has sparked much debate because of the mosaics with which it is decorated. One figure in particular, depicting the sun-god, is often interpreted as Christ. This would make the mausoleum the single exception to the rule that all mausolea in the necropolis are pagan. However, this mausoleum has been the focus of some of my own research that deals with the Roman sun god, and I question the Christian interpretation given to its mosaics. But it is through this mausoleum that I became interested in this complex as a whole.

Returning to the tomb of St. Peter, its discovery immediately raised the question of the remains of the apostle. Did the excavators find them in the tomb under the monument? This is what Pope Pius XII said in his radio broadcast:

The tomb of the Prince of the Apostles has been found. Such is the final conclusion after all the labour and study of these years. A second question, subordinate to the first, refers to the relics of Saint Peter. Have they been found? At the side of the tomb remains of human bones have been discovered. However, it is impossible to prove with certainty that they belong to the apostle.

Little did he know what a bizarre episode in Christian archaeology lay ahead when he spoke these words. The whole subsequent story has been clearly set out by Dr. J. Curran in the journal Classics Ireland but I will summarize it here. Although the scant remains of bones found in the tomb were initially identified as those of a man in his late sixties, more extensive study later revealed that they actually belonged to an older man, a younger man, a woman, a pig, a chicken, and a horse.

This was disappointing, but meanwhile Margherita Guarducci, an epigraphist studying the graffiti on the monument above the tomb, had discovered that there had actually been a second burial associated directly with the monument. The excavators were unaware of this second burial through no fault of their own. The problem was that these archaeologists, as scholars, had dealt with their finds--including human remains--as archaeological data. Monsignor Kaas, a cleric rather than a scholar, thoroughly disapproved of this and as a result there had been a growing rift between the excavators and their superior. Increasingly, Kaas had taken to visiting the site alone, when the others were gone, guided by workmen sworn to secrecy.

On one such visit, in 1942, he had noticed this second tomb in the monument, newly uncovered but as yet unopened, and had ordered the workman accompanying him to open it. The tomb was not empty, and convinced that this was yet another burial that would soon be desecrated by the Jesuit archaeologists, Kaas had ordered the remains removed and stored for safekeeping. Guarducci discovered these events by pure chance, and by that time Kaas had died. So when Paul VI, a family friend of the Guarduccis, was elected pope, she informed him of her belief that in fact these remains were the true remains of Peter. The bones were found where Kaas had stored them and when testing revealed that they did indeed belong to a man in his sixties, Paul VI officially announced, on June 26th 1968, that the relics of St. Peter had been discovered.

Numerous scholars, including Curran, are by no means convinced that Guarducci was right and that these bones are indeed those of St. Peter. There are in fact numerous cogent arguments against that suggestion. However, none of the alternative hypotheses put forward are convincing either, and this leaves us with two tombs, a monument, and no relics.

Does that matter? It is true that we will probably never know with certainty which of the various bones--if any--belong to St. Peter, but while scholars puzzle over the nature of these remains, is it not enough that under the high altar of St. Peter's we have identified the remains of a monument marking a tomb that has drawn Christian worshippers continuously for over 1850 years? It is in that, one would think, that the true importance of this monument lies.

Dr. Steven Hijmans is a professor of history and classics and also a member of the Religion and Culture Network at the University of Alberta. This article was written in conjunction with a lecture series, "Exploring Our Past: Historical Perspectives on Christianity", that was co-organized by the Faculty of Arts and McDougall United Church. See the ExpressNews What's On - Lectures section for more information about this lecture series, which continues until June 14, 2001.

1,847 posted on 03/13/2007 11:38:51 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: nanetteclaret
Have you ever thought that maybe these "apocryphal books about the battles between Simon Magus and Simon Peter" were circulated precisely to call into question the authority of the Holy Father? Here it is, 19 centuries later, and you fell for it!

There is more evidence that Simon Magus was in Rome for 25 years establishing his religious system than there is that Peter was ever in Rome at all.

If you doubt it, go read Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hippolytus and you will find that Simon Magus' time in Rome was a well known fact, but Simon Peter's visit there a little known theory being propped up by the apocryphal Acts of Peter and other apocryphal literature.

1,848 posted on 03/13/2007 12:03:50 PM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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