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To: lupie
lupie, in the main, I agree w/you. the only thing i would add is that sloth and/or the path of least resistance is a powerful motivator in the malfeasance of any organization.

Sts. Peter and Paul preached a faith that was winsome, though with their particular charisms, they had the power, i don't believe they spoke of their power to keep anyone out of heaven who believed that Jesus was the Son of God, who was born of the Blessed Virgin and Mother, who died for our iniquities and who rose from the dead and now sits at the right Hand of the Father.

Following is a piece by Catholic apologist, Art Sippo

So while we wish to be respectful of people from the Protestant religions, we cannot condone their religions since they are in both doctrinal and ecclesiastical error. Frankly, those professing any non-Catholic religion are endangering their souls. No amount of personal piety or private biblical interpretation can excuse this.

Make no mistake about it. Antipathy to the Catholic Church is a sign of non-Election. Hatred of the Body of Christ is hatred of Christ himself (Matt 25:31ff). Ignoring the ordained ministers of Christ is ignoring Christ and thereby ignoring God as well (John 13:20).

When Protestants come to argue their petty little theories by which they seek to make void the word of God and follow the teachings of mere men, they are not on a level playing field with the Catholic Magisterium. Protestants can only give their own private opinions. The Catholic Magisterium speaks under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit (Matt 10:20).

In summary, the 16th Century Protestants apostatized and left the Catholic Church and have invented thousands of separate cults which not only contradict the Catholic Church but each other on serious points of doctrine. The Catholic Church has not changed any of her teachings since before there were Protestants. Consequently it is the Protestants who must now admit that we who have remained in the Catholic Church are true Christians and that we are entitled to our own interpretation of Scripture.[me: the language used here, 'entitled' is indicative, oddly sloppy and revealing.]

Conversely, it is not possible for Catholics to recognize any Protestant group as being on par with the Catholic Church. There will always be something deficient in them. Whatever partial goods they may have, the total package of true Christianity only subsists in Catholicism.

This is sound Catholic teaching, I believe. But, I don't believe there are many Catholics whose goal it is to attract converts who would then put this face of Catholicism forward. It isn't very winsome, is it? Do you hear the voice of Christ or that of Sts. Peter and Paul in that? I do not.

My 1952 Catechism teaches that it is a mortal sin to participate in Protestant worship. I'm not sure if that teaching has changed or not, but if it has, that presents a whole other can of worms. I can't imagine that Jesus would approve of that kind of ecclesial capriciousness, and the damage it does to His name and to the state of the souls of His sheep whom He leaves in the care of pastors who have the responsibility of seeking, heeding and leading them. See Peter and the responsibilities of the elders (bishops) and the youngers.

What is a mortal sin? In a nutshell, I think it can best be described as a grave offense, murder, rape, sodomy, missing Mass and/or a holy day of obligation, and perhaps still, participating in a Protestant liturgy by no means an exhaustive list, and what makes these sins mortal is having full knowledge that they are wrong and proceeding with the act anyway. If I remember correctly, a venial sin can be mortal, if I believe it to be mortal and proceed with the act anyway, and a mortal sin can be venial if I believe it is venial and commit the venial act in accordance with that confused understanding. If I die in a state of mortal sin, hell is my destiny.

I don't think Jesus was tyrannically bent. In all of the ways in which he was accused of departing from the Law, he makes clear that the Pharisees version of the law which they use to imply he's a heretic is not a legitimate part of the Law. It is an accretion and, in fact, an impediment to gaining understanding of what the Law of God proclaims and demands. Jesus was all about the Law too, but it was only He who knew or could know what the Law of God truly demands, and only He who could keep it fully and faithfully. I believe He knew we were not really capable of keeping it. That doesn't mean we should despise or abandon the law, though, just the opposite.

Yesterday, on another thread, discussion of murdering heretics was being discussed. The nobody should kill heretics line was followed by but this or but that, and that is emblematic of existing in a state of denial as it relates to the teachings of our Prince of Peace. When Peter cut off the ear of the soldier who was part of the mob ready to arrest Jesus, Jesus healed that soldier's ear. That soldier was in fact an 'enemy of God', but the Love of The Savior is incomparable.

Surmising who might be elect and who might not be is very dangerous business. Ethos, epochs, politics, struggles with enemies do not diminish that danger one iota. In fact to admit of their importance is to tacitly advance the idea that the gates of hell could prevail against the church, and that it is only man who can make sure that doesn't occur.

I think one of the reasons that the face put forward by present day Catholicism is capable of drawing converts to it is because it offers an avenue to sanctification that Evangelicalism struggles mightily to provide. When a solid doctrine of sanctification does not follow immediately upon the heels of justification, a hunger ensues and then a sense of displacement.

Most people who regularly attend church long to learn of sanctification and to become steadily more sanctified. Sin exists alongside the hunger to extirpate it. It has to, if we do not despise the law. That brings to life Jesus words when He tells us that His Yoke is light.

Thanks for listening, lupie. I want to leave you with a letter I wrote to the pastor of the church I've been attending for the last few weeks that shows my struggles and hopes. And with a quote from C.S. Lewis that shows why he was so loved, and shows just how well he understood the incomparable Love of Jesus and the humility that understanding that produces.

Dear Pastor ___,

I've been thinking of all of you quite a bit since my visit with you last Sunday. My visit to your church and worship experience was sweet and so very warm.

I'm a bit worried, though Pastor, and if you don't mind I want to tell you why.

I'm not sure about all of the Tulip. I do think total depravity is accurate in that even among the best of us, evil lurks in the mind and heart. I'm constantly running back to the Cross. At Mass ran the refrain: "forgive me Lord, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do." But, the limited atonement I view in a way that is passive on the part of God and active on our part because St. John tells us that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Why God hated Esau, I don't know, but I can't infer from that that he hates another who is created in His image who sits to the right or left of me on the bus, or on a bench or in a pew. In other words, "I have not been His counsellor!"

In addition to all of this, I wear a crucifix, I have a very old and very beautiful picture of Jesus in my apartment. Underneath this picture is small collection of palms that my Mother gave me from Palm Sunday, this year.

I don't think of myself as an idolater, Pastor, but it seems to me that all of these things might truly make me an accidental dissenter, and, as such, unfit to faithfully be part of the Reformed faith.

And so, Pastor, I felt compelled to make all of this known to you, as this old heart of mine can't take another realization that there isn't any place in Christendom to which I might belong.

I so enjoyed my visit with you and ______ and your lovely kids. Thank you for that, and please give your wife and kids a kiss for me.

Blessings,

C. S. Lewis, “Answers to Questions on Christianity” from GOD IN THE DOCK:

When I first became a Christian, about fourteen years ago, I thought that I could do it on my own, by retiring to my rooms and reading theology, and wouldn’t go to the churches and Gospel Halls; . . . . I disliked very much their hymns which I considered to be fifth-rate poems set to sixth-rate music. But as I went on I saw the merit of it. I came up against different people of quite different outlooks and different education, and then gradually my conceit just began peeling off. I realized that the hymns (which were just sixth-rate music) were, nevertheless, being sung with devotion and benefit by an old saint in elastic-side boots in the opposite pew, and then you realize that you aren’t fit to clean those boots. It gets you out of your solitary conceit.


73 posted on 05/15/2007 10:25:38 AM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: AlbionGirl
Make no mistake about it. Antipathy to the Catholic Church is a sign of non-Election.

My ex-RC husband says this is drilled into the heads of RC children from an early age and that to disengage from the mother ship of RCism is like being released into the vacuum of outer space, waiting to eventually ignite in a burst of flames.

What you hear in the voices of the reformed, AG, is a true and deep aversion toward the things you still cling to. I'm sorry for that. You know I think so highly of you and learn from every one of your posts. But part of our sanctification is God cleansing our heart of everything that is not Christ-centered, which includes crucifixes, palm fronds and calling Mary the "Blessed Virgin and Mother."

I think you must have had a lovely childhood, and a rich and exhuberant upbringing. And perhaps you confuse the love you feel for your family and your past with the faith God has given you. They really aren't the same thing. We're explicitly told to love Christ more than our past lives, more than our mothers and fathers, and even more than our children, which seems almost impossible to me. But that's what God tells us to do, and so we should work towards that end.

"What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it." -- Habakkuk 2:18-19

Idols aren't just made of silver and gold and wood. They are ashes on foreheads and necklaces and calling men "Father" and a thousand other ways men have of putting something, anything, everything before the Triune God.

"Every one of us is, even from his mother's womb, a master craftsman of idols." -- John Calvin

INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION
Vol. 1, Part 10
Chapter 12
God Distinguished from Idols
that He may be the Exclusive Object of Worship.

"...whenever Scripture asserts the unity of God, it does not contend for a mere name, but also enjoins that nothing which belongs to Divinity be applied to any other; thus making it obvious in what respect pure religion differs from superstition..."

77 posted on 05/15/2007 11:13:00 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: AlbionGirl; lupie
I think one of the reasons that the face put forward by present day Catholicism is capable of drawing converts to it is because it offers an avenue to sanctification that Evangelicalism struggles mightily to provide. When a solid doctrine of sanctification does not follow immediately upon the heels of justification, a hunger ensues and then a sense of displacement.

I meant to address your comment here. The RCC believes sanctification and justification to be the same thing -- as we become better people we are earning our salvation.

So to someone who is unversed in Scripture, a laundry list of things To Do to earn our salvation may sound appealing, easy to understand and accomplish if all the rules are followed.

However it is as part of the recovered early Christian theology of the Reformation that asserts sanctification follows after our one-time, accomplished justification by Christ's atonement on the cross. And this sanctification is accomplished by the work of the Holy Spirit. It becomes obvious to us as we see our lives changing, growing, and bearing fruit.

This, as much as anything else, is the error of Rome, despite the clarity of Scripture.

THE BIBLICAL TEACHING OF JUSTIFICATION
by William Webster

And...

THE ROMAN CATHOLIC TEACHING ON SALVATION AND JUSTIFICATION
by William Webster

If it's a litany of steps you need as part of the process of sanctificaiton, just return to Scripture and read. It's all there.

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

Because it is written, be ye holy; for I am holy." -- 1 Peter 1:15-16

And because we all fall short, Jesus reassures us...

"Be not afraid, only believe" -- Mark 5:36

And by that belief and through that belief life is transformed.

Granted, this is short and to-the-point. If it's verbage a person requires, the RCC canon laws are ripe with words and instructions all pointing away from the singular truth of Christ's accomplished justification.

82 posted on 05/15/2007 11:51:15 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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