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To: AlbionGirl
AG,

Even given the problems in the Catholic Church, to whom else will you turn? Where else will you find the true Body and Blood of Christ?

As Fr. Kimel says:

"It doesn’t matter how vigorously you protest your belief in the eucharistic real presence: if you are not willing and eager to prostrate yourself before the Holy Gifts and adore, worship, and pray to the glorified Lord Jesus Christ, present under the forms of bread and wine, you really do not believe in the real presence."

I know how casually many poorly catechized Catholics treat Christ's Body and Blood in the Eucharist. But I have never seen a presbyterian bow down and worship the Eucharistic gifts.

That's actually a good thing, however, because as St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. 107 AD) said, "Let that Eucharist be held legitimate which is offered by the bishop or by one to whom the bishop has committed this charge." Since presbyterians do not have valid orders, their pastors cannot consecrate bread and wine, and so worshipping the Eucharistic elements consecrated by someone without valid orders would be idolatry.

-A8

179 posted on 05/16/2007 10:26:26 AM PDT by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: adiaireton8
"It doesn’t matter how vigorously you protest your belief in the eucharistic real presence: if you are not willing and eager to prostrate yourself before the Holy Gifts and adore, worship, and pray to the glorified Lord Jesus Christ, present under the forms of bread and wine, you really do not believe in the real presence."

A, we're in disagreement here. I never worshipped the Eucharist in the monstrance when I was Catholic, I shied away from kissing relics (I'm not conflating the two here) and I don't believe that the Holy Spirit appears only and merely at the request and through the hands of Catholic priests.

I'm not in communion with Rome, I don't know how else to express that. A, if you believe me to be in danger of Hell, just pray for me.

181 posted on 05/16/2007 10:47:58 AM PDT by AlbionGirl
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To: adiaireton8; blue-duncan; xzins; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Alex Murphy; topcat54; ...
I know how casually many poorly catechized Catholics treat Christ's Body and Blood in the Eucharist. But I have never seen a presbyterian bow down and worship the Eucharistic gifts.

Thank you, God, for teaching me correct worship.

"That God's word damns your ceremonies it is evident; for the plain and straight commandment of God is, 'Not that thing which appears good in thy eyes shalt thou do to the Lord thy God, but what the Lord thy God has commanded thee; that do thou; add nothing to it; diminish nothing from it.' Now unless you are able to prove that God has commanded your ceremonies, this his former commandment will damn both you and them." -- John Knox (Knox, Works, 1:199. Cf. Calvin, The Necessity of Reforming the Church, in Tracts, 1:128-29.)

Amen.

Since presbyterians do not have valid orders, their pastors cannot consecrate bread and wine, and so worshipping the Eucharistic elements consecrated by someone without valid orders would be idolatry.

Presbyterian pastors, along with Methodist, Baptist, Congregationalist and other Protestant pastors, know from Scripture where true idolatry lies.

"Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.

He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:

And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.

They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?

He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?" -- Isaiah 44:15-20


212 posted on 05/16/2007 5:19:17 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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