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Deliver Us From Evil
CNN ^
| 1/08/07
| Amy Berg
Posted on 01/08/2007 5:34:25 PM PST by dcnd9
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To: lupie
No problem. It is important for Christians to understand the Donatist heresy, because it has very significant implications for the issue we are discussing. Sacramental authority, received through ordination, is not contingent on how righteously the person is living. The gifts and calling are irrevocable. Tertullian (200 AD) became a [Montanist] heretic later in his life in part because he thought that the Pope was being too soft on repentant sinners. Aaron and Miriam provoked the Lord and received leprosy for presuming that they had no less authority or spiritual gifts than did Moses. (Num 12) Absalom did the same sort of thing with King David. ('If I were king, I would do it better.') Contrast that with David's repeated treatment of Saul; even though Saul was disobeying God, David refused to kill Saul or take the throne by force, because Saul was the rightfully anointed king. In fact, the attitude of Miriam and Aaron and Absalom and Tertullian goes back to the garden, when Eve presumed to know better than God. And it goes back even deeper, to Satan's presumption to be greater than God, and usurp the divine throne (of which the bishop's chair is a type). A bishop or priest does not lose his sacramental authority or power by sinning. That is why the sins of the clergy do not justify schism on the part of the laity.
-A8
101
posted on
05/15/2007 12:54:24 PM PDT
by
adiaireton8
("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
To: Dr. Eckleburg
You didn't answer my question. Whose interpretation is authoritative?
-A8
102
posted on
05/15/2007 12:56:15 PM PDT
by
adiaireton8
("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
To: ItsOurTimeNow; Dr. Eckleburg
Priestly secret superpowers granted by the laying of hands? Are there decoder rings and x-ray specs as well? Its interesting to see how the oppressive mysticism of the Dark Ages still permeates the RCC.
Well, decoder rings and x-ray specs...um...no, I don't think so.
But there are the bones of saints (is the second knuckle more or less holy than the third knuckle?). And there is always the
Holy Prepuce if all else fails. But it has recently disappeared from its Sacred Shoebox. Vatican agents are apparently suspected in the deed. Funny, it used to be that only us Protestant types suspected that (of the remnants of Vaudois writings for instance) and were called crazies for saying so.
More seriously, Rome has actually been drawing away from relics and the associated mysticism (admission there is no Limbo, repudiation of the historicity of Saint Christopher and the inevitable doubts cast on other "saints", rejection of the worldwide petition drive to officially name Mary as Co-Redemptrix). They also seem to being doing a lot less in the way of encouraging contemplative mysticism than are many evangelicals with their Emergent Church movement.
We'd best tread carefully here. We might have to clean our own house a bit before pointing at Rome's.
To: ksen
The Pope-Archbishop-Bishop relationship is not the same as the Doctor-Patient relationship and you know it. Your doctor can't excommunicate you. Your doctor -- with some exceptions -- is not required by law to take or keep you as a patient, so yes, as a matter of fact, he can "excommunicate" you.
Maybe from the fact that Catholics are REQUIRED to be in submission to the Bishop of Rome?
And that leads to the idea that the Pope has perfect control over every one of his 1-billion strong flock ... how, exactly?
Ever heard of the concepts of "subsidiarity" and "collegiality"?
104
posted on
05/15/2007 1:08:29 PM PDT
by
Campion
("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
To: AlbionGirl
The Scriptures will solve nothing in this disparate understanding of things because they are replete with verses that point to each of our views. Ah, sadly spoken like a Romanist.
For me, the Scriptures answer most every important question worth asking to an end that is both satisfying and defensible. I believe God intended it that way.
As for justification and predestination, I read both concepts on nearly every page of Scripture with eyes and ears given to me by God.
Insofar as Mary is concerned. I was named after her. When I was 13 or 14 years old my mother walked into my bedroom when I was getting dressed and looked at my naked form and said to me, 'sei come la madonna.' How I could I not love myself after that? And I did, and I do.
Does the Bible tell us to be like Mary? Here all along I thought we were supposed to become more Christ-like, even us women.
"Vanity, definitely my favorite sin." -- Al Pacino as Satan in "The Devil's Advocate."
105
posted on
05/15/2007 1:08:41 PM PDT
by
Dr. Eckleburg
("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
To: Pyro7480
As is often said, the Catholic Church is more than the bishops. :-ÞTrue, but the bishops are the "successors of the apostles" and are supposed to teach an "unchanging" religion.
There are plenty of Protestant ministers who are highly visible in the conservative movement. So far as I know, all prominent Catholic conservatives are laypeople. The Catholic clergy simply does not do its job. And with Eastern Orthodoxy (which is as ethnic and insular as Judaism), there aren't even any laypeople in conservative leadership.
At any rate, your remark about the Catholic Church being "the only thing standing up to Hollywood" betrays either dishonesty or an abysmal ignorance of American Fundamentalist Protestantism.
106
posted on
05/15/2007 1:09:30 PM PDT
by
Zionist Conspirator
(Ve'adabberah ve`edoteykha neged melakhim velo' 'evosh.)
To: Zionist Conspirator
So far as I know, all prominent Catholic conservatives are laypeople. The Catholic clergy simply does not do its job Do a FR search on "Archbishop Burke".
-A8
107
posted on
05/15/2007 1:13:44 PM PDT
by
adiaireton8
("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
To: Zionist Conspirator
You forgot my qualifier "often."
Nitpicking! Nitpicking!
108
posted on
05/15/2007 1:15:08 PM PDT
by
Pyro7480
("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
To: Dr. Eckleburg
For me, the Scriptures answer most every important question worth asking Here's an important question worth asking: Whose interpretation is authoritative?
-A8
109
posted on
05/15/2007 1:17:52 PM PDT
by
adiaireton8
("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
To: Gamecock
110
posted on
05/15/2007 1:18:41 PM PDT
by
klossg
(GK - God is good!)
To: Dr. Eckleburg
For me, the Scriptures answer most every important question worth asking to an end that is both satisfying and defensible. And the Arminians say the same thing, and you and they reject each others' doctrine and quarrel endlessly, when you aren't picking fights with Catholics.
So much for an "end that is both satisfying and defensible".
1 Corinthians 1:10.
111
posted on
05/15/2007 1:20:51 PM PDT
by
Campion
("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
To: Pyro7480
You forgot my qualifier "often." Nitpicking! Nitpicking!
I am not. There is never a time when Fundamentalist Protestants (who are regarded by Hollywood as practically sub-human) are not opposed to Hollywood values. On the other hand (as observed by honest leftwinger Mike Bryan in his book Chapter and Verse Catholicism is respected by liberals for its intellectualism and its refusal to do much of anything to enforce its teachings. I highly recommend this book, btw (which probably means you'll never read it).
Are you completely unaware of the existence of the rural Fundamentalist Protestantism that was "the" American religion for almost two centuries? Where do you live, in the heart of some large city that isn't even contiguous to the continental United States?
112
posted on
05/15/2007 1:20:58 PM PDT
by
Zionist Conspirator
(Ve'adabberah ve`edoteykha neged melakhim velo' 'evosh.)
To: adiaireton8
Do a FR search on "Archbishop Burke".I have never heard of Archbishop Burke. OTOH, every American Catholic has heard of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Robison, John Hagee, etc.
My original observation stands.
113
posted on
05/15/2007 1:24:23 PM PDT
by
Zionist Conspirator
(Ve'adabberah ve`edoteykha neged melakhim velo' 'evosh.)
To: Zionist Conspirator
On the other hand (as observed by honest leftwinger Mike Bryan in his book Chapter and Verse Catholicism is respected by liberals for its intellectualismAnd you accuse me of making ridiculous claims? The Catholic Church is a long-time enemy of the Left. It's first external manifestation was the French Revolution's campaign against the Church.
Are you completely unaware of the existence of the rural Fundamentalist Protestantism that was "the" American religion for almost two centuries? Where do you live, in the heart of some large city that isn't even contiguous to the continental United States?
Where is the blazes is this question coming from? My posts do not at all discount the contributions of "Reformist" Christianity to the anti-secularist cause.
114
posted on
05/15/2007 1:25:59 PM PDT
by
Pyro7480
("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
To: Zionist Conspirator
OTOH, every American Catholic has heard of Jerry Falwell, Pat RobertsonMainly because of the mainstream media's coverage of their controversies. The others aren't as well-known.
115
posted on
05/15/2007 1:26:51 PM PDT
by
Pyro7480
("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
To: Zionist Conspirator
On the other hand (as observed by honest leftwinger Mike Bryan in his book Chapter and Verse Catholicism is respected by liberals for its intellectualism and its refusal to do much of anything to enforce its teachings.not so fast
116
posted on
05/15/2007 1:27:02 PM PDT
by
Campion
("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
To: adiaireton8
Sorry to be repetitive, but it works for me.
I trust the Holy Spirit to speak to me through Scripture. And as evidence of that process, my life is full. I sleep well.
When in doubt, I speak with other believers who give their input of the Scriptures. From this I learn to correctly discern the word of God. It's just not all that difficult. In fact, God has made His will pretty clear in my life, as He does in the lives of all who trust in His word and in the one-time, perfect, accomplished atonement of Jesus Christ.
RCs seek authority through their church, through the vagaries of men in gaudy robes and high hats, as if they could possibly speak for God Himself. This type of delusion is one from which I thank God daily I do not suffer.
117
posted on
05/15/2007 1:29:12 PM PDT
by
Dr. Eckleburg
("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
To: Campion
But the end is satisfying and defensible for me. Sorry if that disturbs you.
118
posted on
05/15/2007 1:31:09 PM PDT
by
Dr. Eckleburg
("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
To: Dr. Eckleburg
My question is a *who* question; answering the question involves identifying a person or persons. Saying "it works for me" completely avoids answering the question. So please: Whose interpretation is authoritative?
-A8
119
posted on
05/15/2007 1:32:41 PM PDT
by
adiaireton8
("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
To: Pyro7480
And you accuse me of making ridiculous claims? The Catholic Church is a long-time enemy of the Left. It's first external manifestation was the French Revolution's campaign against the Church.It used to be. The American bishops are probably to the Left of Robespierre in their committment to the idea of religion as "private" and "personal" and subjective rather than being factually true in the same sense as all other facts are.
Where is the blazes is this question coming from? My posts do not at all discount the contributions of "Reformist" Christianity to the anti-secularist cause.
You've led a very insular life, haven't you? "Reformist" chr*stianity leads the anti-secularist cause while the Catholic Church's official spokesmen (who have roughly the same ideological orientation as the "official leaders of the American Jewish community") give communion to abortionist politicians and spend all their time condemning Biblical literalism and gun ownership. Of course, you city-slickers aren't too keen on guns anyway.
120
posted on
05/15/2007 1:33:59 PM PDT
by
Zionist Conspirator
(Ve'adabberah ve`edoteykha neged melakhim velo' 'evosh.)
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