[blue-duncan]

"Th epurgatory is plain uin the scripture"

How can it be plain in the scripture when it runs afoul of basic Roman Catholic soteriology; that one can't know he/she is fully saved until after he/she dies and the account books are opened? If the person in "purgatory can't do anything to help him/herself and must rely on God and the prayers, good deeds or indulgences of those left behind, how can anyone know that the dead isn't already in hell and all their efforts are a waste of time and they are just "whistling by the graveyard"?

The same goes to praying to the saints. How does anyone know that anyone except Jesus made it eternally into heaven, with the possible exception of Moses and Elijah since they appeared on the mount of the transfiguration?

Both of these beliefs run counter to the works based salvation taught by the Roman Catholic Church since no one knows what kind of life anyone lived in the spirit here except God and He ain't telling anyone here.

So, based on your definition, both of those beliefs and rituals are superstitions: "belief in an supernatural quality of a object contrary to logic or divine revelation" since they both are based on nothing but wishes since no one knows where the people are they are praying to or for or whether what they are praying for will ever be heard.

[Quix]

Well put.

Thx.

[1000 silverlings]

Th epurgatory is plain uin the scripture"

Well that claim must be made or the whole underpinnings of the religion collapses, and there goes the safety net upon which the whole notion rests, since Christ's sacrifice was no full propitiation for sins.

[annalex]

How can it be plain in the scripture when it runs afoul of basic Roman Catholic soteriology

First, there is nothing in your post to challenge the scriptural basis for the doctrine of purgatory. I am tempted to just leave it at that, with a remark that you do not understand Catholicism well enough to point out contradictions.

But since there is obviously interest on this thread in understanding Catholicism better, I will explain. It is true that generally no one knows who is saved and who is lost except at the end of one's life by the faithful himself. It is likewise not known if a saved soul is in purgatory or has already made it to heaven. Further, the very concept of purgatorial fire existing in the temporal domain measurable by time is a popular piety: it is helpful to think of it that way, but it is not a dogma of the Church.

We do not know if our prayers for the dead are applicable every time. The dead soul may be truly dead in hell, or in heaven and not requiring our prayers in either case. We pray because we want cleansing of saved souls, when possible, if possible.

We do have two kinds of relative knoweldge and relative assurance. First, we know of the salvific, transforming efficacy of the sacraments of the Church. We then know that one properly dispatched by the Church to his rest is on his way to heaven. Second, we know that the Church is capable of scrutinizing a particular life and upon evidence of miracles it worked as evidence of its santification, the Church can confidently canonized this man saint, who then will hear our prayers and pray for us in heaven.

Your puzzlement would have been well placed if we considered good works salvific alone. Then the disposition of the worker would not have mattered and the works being an objective fact could lead us to objective conclusion of the state of the departed soul. Works in life would be purchasing salvation in the afterlife. But of course works are salvific inasmuch as they draw our heart to Christ, and here is the great mystery, the mystery of the Beatitudes: blessed are those whose works, albeit objectively poor, are done in Spirit.

Are Christian beliefs like this, beliefs shrouded in mystery, superstition? Fools think so. But we see wintesses in heaven.

[Marysecretary]

HEY! He told ME and you and I need to talk (smile).