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To: annalex
To: Blogger our perspective, Paul has been ignorred while a very narrow interpretation of James has been embraced.

The Catholic interpretation of James 2 is direct and literal.
And out of the context of the whole of Scripture.

What he says, we believe: "not by faith alone are ye saved". Nowhere did I disagree or negate St. Paul.
You disagree and negate Paul when you dismiss his abundant testimony that salvation is NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast. You rationalize it as "these kind of works verses those kind of works" - a distinction not supported by Scripture.

I agree with his every word. I am Catholic, remember? In fact, I quote from Paul quite a bit to proof the salvific role of works of love. In fact, is it not Paul who said "greatest of [the theological virtues of hope, faith and love] is love"?
Paul does not say that love is salvific. Love accompanies true salvation. It is not salvific.

our side made a correction

And now I scripturally corrected your "correction".

I was speaking of the Reformation. And, no you didn't. You gave your interpretation.


But how does one know what is true?
Familiar question. "For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice" (John 18:37). This is what Christ told His disciples: "when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you" (John 16:13), and also "the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you" (John 14:26).

AH! We agree on something!!!!

And then, this! Argghhhhhhh!!!!! So what is the truth? The Church is, of course, the "ground and pillar of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).
So close and yet so far. Incidentally, there is nothing in the Greek that prohibits that verse from saying that God is the ground and pillar of the truth. Something to think bout.


We should spend our time in study of the Word of God
As St. Jerome said, ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ. My advice to all Protestants is, study the scripture but do not study it alone. Study it with the fathers of the Church, because in them you have a historical witness of the intended meaning.

The Fathers are not Scripture. The Fathers were not always inspired. We will stick with Scripture, but thanks for the offer.

Incidentally, Jerome also said this - but it seems to be ignorred with regularity...""As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."
8,983 posted on 02/05/2007 5:24:02 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger; Kolokotronis
You disagree and negate Paul when you dismiss his abundant testimony that salvation is NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast. You rationalize it as "these kind of works verses those kind of works" - a distinction not supported by Scripture

I showed you where it is supported. The judgement is by works, -- I showed you the scripture. Some works condemn, some burn, some remain in heaven -- 1 Cor 3. Christ condemned the Pharisees for works of ostentation. Works are all different, scripture says.

Paul does not say that love is salvific

Modernity thinks that love is an attitude, and that is not salvific. But love is work. That is salvific, St. James says so, and St. Paul agrees:

4 When Christ shall appear, who is your life, then you also shall appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, lust, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is the service of idols. 6 For which things the wrath of God cometh upon the children of unbelief, 7 In which you also walked some time, when you lived in them. 8 But now put you also all away: anger, indignation, malice, blasphemy, filthy speech out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another: stripping yourselves of the old man with his deeds, 10 And putting on the new, him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him. 11 Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put ye on therefore, as the elect of God, holy, and beloved, the bowels of mercy, benignity, humility, modesty, patience: 13 Bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if any have a complaint against another: even as the Lord hath forgiven you, so do you also. 14 But above all these things have charity, which is the bond of perfection: 15 And let the peace of Christ rejoice in your hearts, wherein also you are called in one body: and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you abundantly, in all wisdom: teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles, singing in grace in your hearts to God. 17 All whatsoever you do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

(Col 3)

Mortify flesh, grow in love, and you will appear with Christ in glory.

You gave your interpretation.

I gave the interpretation that is correct. It is wrong to say that the Catholic interpretation is one, and the Protestant is another, as the protestant interpretationis provenly wrong on Sola Fide: it ignores half the scripture, and misunderstands the other.

there is nothing in the Greek that prohibits that verse [1 Timothy 3:15] from saying that God is the ground and pillar of the truth

"ekklesia (nominative) Theou (genitive) zontos stylos (nominative) kai edraioma (nominative) tes aletheias". Kolokotronis, is my grammar right here? Would not stylos be inflected "stylou" together with "Theou" if it were epithet of God?

The larger point is that Christ explains that the truth is what he sends His Church in these John's passages cited. In Matthew 18:17 we likewise read that the Church, -- not the Scripture under lay interpretation -- is the final arbiter of disputes.

does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures

The Church, not St. Jerome, and certainly not the Jews, defines the Canon.

9,090 posted on 02/06/2007 11:29:56 AM PST by annalex
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