First of all, Matthew 25 is a continuation of Matthew 24 which is about the end times and the second coming of the Lord. It is a series of parables. And, it is a series of parables distinguishing those who have truly been saved as opposed to those who may make a claim to salvation but do not know the Lord.
The first one shows 10 virgins awaiting a bridegroom. They profess to be followers of the bridegroom. Yet, only 5 of the 10 have oil in their lamps and the other 5 do not. The Oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit whom true Christians get when they are saved. So, it is pretty much a parable showing without the Spirit in one's life, it doesn't matter if you hang around proclaiming things, you will not be taken to be with the bridegroom but will be left far from him. As the Bridegroom said "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."
The second parable is about the servants with the talents. God shines His sun upon the just and the unjust and all are given gifts. The key to understanding this parable is in the adjectives describing the servants. You have a good and faithful servant. And you have a wicked and slothful servant. True faith is a faith that will produce works. Salvation is not of works. But when someone is saved they will naturally want to please their Lord. The lost are not so but hoard God's gifts in greed not giving God the glory or honor which is His due. They will be cast into outer darkness and everything that they have ever done or gained will be given away when they die. They were given instructions, but as the lost do, they reject God's ways every time and will punished.
The last is the sheep and the goats. Again, this is a contrast between the saved and the lost.
Now note, these are parables. Jesus does not specifically identify the Prince and the King with Himself - though as an abstract principle that is what is understood. He speaks in the second person. He is trying to illustrate a point, but is not saying that this is literally the way it will be fulfilled. Those who are is WILL work, but they are not saved by works as SCRIPTURE IN ITS CONTEXT (and yes, Annalex cherry picking Matthew 25 outside of the context of the WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE is still cherry picking)abundantly and clearly says.
Romans 2- Do you realize that there are two judgments? There is one for the saved and one for the lost. The saved are not judged according to their works but the works themselves are judged. Those works done for Christ's glory will be rewarded. Those works done for other reasons will be burned up .
The lost are judged according to what they did with the light that they had. The lost have ultimately rejected God but there are levels of punishment for them. A man like Ghandi who sought to eleviate suffering but ultimately rejected Christ is likely to be judged less harshly than a man like Hitler. But all will be separated from Christ forever.
James 2 is NOT IN CONTEXT. Works-salvation folks take James's words in isolation and then pretend that their interpretation of those words is in agreement with the rest of Scripture. James has been explained to the hardheaded proponents of works salvation time and time again. But for those who care to actually understand what is being said by James, here is one more try.
James 2:24 in context is both in the middle of the book of James but also is related to the rest of the New Testament.
Here we have two verses which appear to contradict to people unwilling to dig a little to understand...
# Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:1-3 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
# James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Paul and James are speaking of justification from two points of view. One is the internal justification (in relationship to God), one is the external & internal justification (how we know that someone is saved from a human perspective.
Lots of people claim to have faith. Bill Clinton claims to be a Christian. The priests that have molested children claim to be Christians. Alexander VI, the Pope, claimed to be a Christian. But very often, works do not follow that faith. James is saying "You say you have faith, but hey the verbal proclamation that you are a Christian does not indicate that you are saved. Rather, true faith is a faith that will produce works. If your faith does not show works it is a dead faith. It is useless. It is meaningless. It is false. But if your faith shows works, then it bears evidence of being true Christian faith." As James says later. "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."
Verse 19 precedes the verses that you quoted.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
In other words, lots of folks will say "hey, I believe in God." As if that is something to boast about, but their lives do nothing for His glory. The devils themselves also believe that God exists and tremble. The chief difference is that one person makes some sort of mental assent that he exists but He is not their Lord. True faith in Christ is a faith in which Christ is the Lord of their lives. As such, it will be a faith that works.
Abraham was justified salvifically by his faith; but if he had never done anything to illustrate that faith how would we know he was any different from the demons? Abraham's claim to faith was justified by the fact he was willing to place his faith in God regarding Isaac. Faith is a faith that works. But works are not the basis of our salvation. They are the affect of our salvation.
As you your other answers, you should REREAD and then REREAD AGAIN the texts. They do not say what you claim.
The Titus passage has a good companion in Ephesians 2:8-10
Paul to Titus and to the Ephesians could not be more clear that SALVATION IS NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT OF WORKS!!!!!!! Do not ignore this Annalex. Paul is about to pick up a scroll and smack you across the face with it. IT IS NOT OF WORKS. You are trying to make him say "it isn't of works except these works...." He would spit at that suggestion (actually he had sharper words to those who would try to hoist a work [circumcision] upon the Galatians and said they should go the whole way and cut their manhood off!) S A L V A T I O N I S N O T O F W O R K S. However, we were saved to do good works. You are confusing the cause and the effect of salvation. The cause of salvation is GRACE, not works. THe effect of salvation is works. Ephesians 2:10 says such and the Titus passage reiterates -salvation is not of works, but you who love God, WORK!
Romans 3 through around Romans 13 is all about SALVATION
Romans 9 SPECIFICALLY IS ABOUT ELECTION. Esau and Isaac are given as examples but that is not what the chapter is about. Rather, it is an opening to chapters 10-11 which are all about our salvation and the salvation of Israel.
On our salvation Chapter 9 says
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
In other words - ELECTION. I WOULD ENCOURAGE ANYONE TO READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER. IT IS NOT AS ANNALEX SAID.
As to the rest of your points, it has occurred to me that there is a big problem with even discussing this with you. You are trying to make a distinction from the works of the law and some other kind of salvific works. Scripture makes no such distinction. As Scripture says: Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Your entire interpretation is based upon a distinction that one does not see in Scripture. Rather, the "Catholic kind of works" are pretty much found in the "Jewish kind of works, or law". You think repetitive rituals help get you saved? The Jews had them. You think that giving to the poor helps save you? Such was provided for in the law. You think that fasting on certain days will help save you? The Jews had fasts. You think that having a priest offer up prayers for your benefit clears you of sin? the Jews thought similarly.
The law was our schoolteacher. It was to teach us that works don't save and that we are unrighteous wretches apart from God. Roman Catholicism has missed that message and has added to the true Gospel a bunch of man-made superstition and ritual which they call the gospel.
Annalex, you are a frustrating person to talk to because you take rules outside of Scripture (i.e., there are two different kinds of works in the realm of salvation) and look at everything eisegetically from that construct. I can not argue with you from the text if you are not willing to see or acknowledge what the text actually says. If you threw out all of Galations you still have point blank statements that salvation is not of works. You try to distinguish those works. Paul didn't. If you won't believe him, you won't believe me. Our conversation is fruitless.
A fruitless religion forum conversation?
You must jest. /sar
It's the nature of the beast . . . thankfully, nevertheless, lurkers benefit.
Terrific post.
This is a first: I cherry picked a whole chapter! well, let us see if I did:
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.[...]
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
[...]
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
This is no parable. This is a direct description of judgement at the Second Coming of Christ, Who calls himself "the son of Man" routinely. It separates the saved fromt he condemned, and it is doen strictly by their works: "as long as you did it [or did not] to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me."
Is Matthews 25 some kind of an odd-out chapter? Not at all: James 2 speaks of works, and Romans 2, and Apocalypse 22, and St. Paul urges to "put on love" in every letter.
Romans 2- Do you realize that there are two judgments? There is one for the saved and one for the lost.
The two judgements are the particular judgement at the hour of death, and the universal judgement at the second coming. Obviously, first the saved are separated from the lost, and then rewards are given. No argument there. But what does it have to do with Romans 2?
6 [God] will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.
There is the same symmetry here as in Matthew 25: both the saved and the lost are judged by their works. One cannot judge the saved and the lost unless the saved are separated from the lost first.
# Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:1-3 (in Context) Romans 4 (Whole Chapter)
# James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
I explained it to you in the post you are responding to: St. Paul it talking of circumcision of Abraham (not salvific, Paul says) and St. James is talking fo the work of sacrificing Isaac (salvific, says James).
Abraham was justified salvifically by his faith; but if he had never done anything to illustrate that faith how would we know he was any different from the demons? Abraham's claim to faith was justified by the fact he was willing to place his faith in God regarding Isaac. Faith is a faith that works. But works are not the basis of our salvation. They are the affect of our salvation.
James explains that works are something that others can see, correct. But he does not say that works are a mere outward effect of faith. How could he? God knows Abraham's heart. Whether we know of Abraham's faith or not is not relevant. Abraham's work of sacrificing Isaac was salvific in itself and not as a demostration of faith.
S A L V A T I O N I S N O T O F W O R K S.
Will you calm down and make a coherent argument? I did cover both the Titus and the Ephesians quotes. I am familiar with the Protestant line of thought, but I do not see it supported scripturally.
ELECTION
I have no argument there: St. Paul does speak of divine election. So?
You are trying to make a distinction from the works of the law and some other kind of salvific works. Scripture makes no such distinction
Of course it is right in the scripture. Matthew 25 describes certain works that separate the saved from the lost. They are all works of love. Every time judgement of any kind is mentioned in the scripture, it is by works. When works are described as not salvific, it is always clear in context that these are works of ceremonial law, or works for temporal reward. The entire dispute that Christ had with the Pharisees was about works for social recognition, whch they were masters at. But at the same time when Christ was asked what one needs to do in order to inherit the Kingdom, He said: give what you have to the poor and follow me. So he declared some works irrelevant or even harmful to salvation, and urged other works. St. Paul repeats the same teaching in Galatians, Ephesians and Romans.