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To: Forest Keeper
. . .awarding. . .

You keep using that word. If you want to understand the Orthodox conception of salvation, you need to step out of the juridical mindset of the West with its notions like 'awarding' or 'merit' (whether used negatively, as in 'nothing we can do merits salvation' or positively as in the Latin notion of 'superabundance of merit' derived from the saints).

While there are aspects of the juridical model that somewhat illumine what happens in our salvation, by and large a medical model is better. Theosis is health, being as we were intended to be, Christ-like, in full communion with God, filled with the Holy Spirit, living not our own life, but the life of the Undivided Trinity. Sin is a deadly disease. God is the physician, without Him we cannot cure ourselves and attain health, nor--out of love and respect for the freedom He gave us, not out of lack of power--does He cure us without our cooperation. Theosis is not 'awarded', but attained, not though our efforts or merits, but through our cooperation with God's freely given grace.

7,432 posted on 01/24/2007 11:35:45 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: The_Reader_David
You keep using that word. If you want to understand the Orthodox conception of salvation, you need to step out of the juridical mindset of the West with its notions like 'awarding' or 'merit' (whether used negatively, as in 'nothing we can do merits salvation' or positively as in the Latin notion of 'superabundance of merit' derived from the saints).

YEAH! HUGE 10-4 -- WITH sprinkles!

I view a lot of what we westerners say as a very noisy kind of apophaticism. The only good of a juridical mindset is to watch it explode. I like fireworks.

7,435 posted on 01/24/2007 11:43:28 AM PST by Mad Dawg ("It's our humility which makes us great." -- Click and Clack, the Tappet Brothers)
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To: The_Reader_David; Forest Keeper
the Latin notion of 'superabundance of merit' derived from the saints

Agree on the medical model, disagree on this. The superabundant merits as an expression is straight from St. Paul:

the law entered in, that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound.

(Romans 5:20)

as the sufferings of Christ abound in us: so also by Christ doth our comfort abound.

(2 Cor 1:5)

that the grace abounding through many, may abound in thanksgiving unto the glory of God.

(2 Cor 4:15)

if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(2 Peter 1:8)

The superabundant merit always refers to Christ. The merits of the saints are obtained through Him.

See Merit.

7,446 posted on 01/24/2007 1:27:35 PM PST by annalex
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To: The_Reader_David; kosta50
Sin is a deadly disease. God is the physician, without Him we cannot cure ourselves and attain health, nor--out of love and respect for the freedom He gave us, not out of lack of power--does He cure us without our cooperation.

This I have never understood about the Apostolic faith. To continue the analogy, God as physician simply advises His patients how to eat right, live a healthy lifestyle, etc. But, when He sees evidence that a patient is not following His advice, even in matters of life and death, He just chalks it up to that person's free will. That is the extent of the power He chooses to exert in the matter.

I see this is being directly opposed to the analogy we are given over and over again in the Bible, that of parent-child. While my children live under my roof and I "own" them, in matters of life and death I have absolutely zero love and respect for their free wills. They don't know enough to do what is in their own best interests many times, so I step in to "save" them from themselves. I think this is much closer to how it works with God. Even as mature adults, the human will blow it. God must step in and save those He chooses as His children from themselves.

Theosis is not 'awarded', but attained, not though our efforts or merits, but through our cooperation with God's freely given grace.

My first use of the "awarded" idea was in response to something Kosta said. I was, in effect, asking if he was describing theosis as an award vs. being an attainment. As of your post, he has answered that it is an award, but it is possible that I misinterpreted. It is also possible there has been further discussion which I haven't caught up to yet, so ...

BTW, how does one cooperate without effort or merit?

7,786 posted on 01/27/2007 3:18:58 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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