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To: Buggman

that's rather harsh given the circumstances

Matter of opinion. Others didn't survive. I guess Josephus was a survivor.

there's no reason to believe that his surrender to the Romans would affect his testimony about the Jewish canon, a completely unrelated issue

Josephus was following his own agenda. He did and wrote what was good for him. The unfortunate part is that there is almost nothing to go by to corroborate his writings from independent sources.

Even the one piece that exists about Christ is rendered in four versions.

Anyway, the fact that the Hebrew was transmitted correctly and faithfully has actually been confirmed by the DSS.

Apprently not if "There are a handful of places where the LXX may be the more accurate than the Masoretic" as you point out. Who is to say that the text used to translate LXX was not more accurate than the Hebrew/DSS version? If anything DSS revitalized the validity of LXX, not the other way around.

But why would you single out Sha'ul as a "special case"

+Paul preached his own gospel. I will leave it at that.

It seems to me that we should take special note that the Apostle to the Gentiles didn't use the LXX nearly half the time!

It seems to me that the Gentiles should have been preached the same Scripture preached by Christ in the Gospels, which is LXX.

6,972 posted on 01/19/2007 12:47:38 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
I guess Josephus was a survivor.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not presenting the guy as a source of inspiration. I just don't see any point in demonizing him either.

Josephus was following his own agenda. He did and wrote what was good for him.

And pray-tell, what is your evidence that the matter of the Jewish canon was something that he saw fit to lie about for his own purposes? And exactly what would those alleged purposes be, anyway?

The unfortunate part is that there is almost nothing to go by to corroborate his writings from independent sources.

The unfortunate part is that about 90+% of what we know about ancient history is single-sourced. So what then is your point?

Even the one piece that exists about Christ is rendered in four versions.

Thanks to Christian scribes who saw fit to interpolate their own prejudices into Josephus' writings and thereby almost destroy the value of the earliest non-Biblical source on the existence of Yeshua the Messiah.

I don't see how the stupidity of later Christians in regards to one passage of Josephus somehow discredits his comment on the canon of the Tanakh in a completely different work. Nor for that matter do I see how Josephus' undeniable knack for spinning the Jewish wars in favor of his Roman patron and the party of the Pharisees has anything to do with his ability to report the established Jewish canon of the first century--a matter that the Romans wouldn't have given two shakes about and which those Jews who would not have been happy about him "turning traitor" would have been happy to rip him on (a rip which would have been recorded in the Talmud, most likely) had he been inaccurate.

Do you have any alternate evidence to present that the Apocrypha were widely accepted by any Jewish group in the first century? Or for that matter by any Christian group in that period? No? Then stop wasting my time with poisoning the well techniques and just admit it.

Apprently not if "There are a handful of places where the LXX may be the more accurate than the Masoretic" as you point out.

As opposed to dozens of places where the LXX is less accurate?

Look, the differences in the LXX are often due to the fact that the LXX, like the Targums, is more a dynamic-equivalent translation than a word-for-word translation. That's actually one of the things that makes it so useful as a historical resource, since it gives us insight into the understandings of the translators. However, to rely on it is like relying solely on the NIV instead of taking the time to learn Greek and Hebrew and study the Bible in its original languages--you limit yourself.

Other reasons for the differences are discussed here--it seems that there were multiple textual traditions, all of which were found among the DSS.

Now, if you wanted to use the LXX as a guide as to which textual tradition to follow (the Egyptian as opposed to the Masoretic, for example) in places where the existent Hebrew manuscripts were in dispute, okay, fine. That's normal textual criticism, and we do it all the time with the LXX, the Targums, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Syriac text, the DSS, etc. I think it's foolish to rely too much on a single tradition, but I can understand your reasoning.

But that's not what you're saying. You're saying that the Greek translation of the LXX is actually superior to and should be referred to instead of any Hebrew manuscript of the Tanakh. You're not just using it for a guide, you're pretending that God came down and gave the Torah in Greek on Mt. Sinai.

Well, He didn't. He chose instead to give the Scriptures in Hebrew to men of Oriental culture and thought. Instead of reading the Scriptures in their original context, you're filtering them through your own Western prejudices--and not interpreting them correctly.

Paul preached his own gospel. I will leave it at that.

And . . . ? Not seeing a point here.

It seems to me that the Gentiles should have been preached the same Scripture preached by Christ in the Gospels, which is LXX.

If you think Yeshua was preaching in Greek in Galilee and Judea, you don't know enough about the history and sociology of the area to even be having this conversation with. Do you know why the Romans let Josephus live? Two reasons: A) He "prophesied" Titus' ascendancy, and B) they needed someone to translate for them because most Judeans didn't speak Greek!

Well, I was right--this has indeed been every bit as fruitful as debating with a KJV-Only fanatic would be. "If the King James' was good enough for Peter and Paul, then it's good enough for me!"

7,033 posted on 01/19/2007 10:57:48 PM PST by Buggman (http://brit-chadasha.blogspot.com)
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