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To: klossg

He did not say that this physically becomes my body and blood. He was still alive. There was no sacrifice as of yet. It was symbolic. When he instituted Lord's supper later, he said to do it in rememberance of me. Such a fact that it is a memorial supper (much as Passover was a memorial supper) is ignorred by Catholics and it is said to confer some special grace upon the partaker which is contributory to salvation. Once again, we have our works being mixed in with grace to give salvation. A non-Biblical idea and a different gospel.


3,725 posted on 01/03/2007 3:28:55 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger; klossg
He did not say that this physically becomes my body and blood

This is exactly what He said:

53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

He was still alive.

So? the entire discourse is about a future gift (John 6:52).

It was symbolic.

If it were symbolic, the disciples would not have left, as they objected to the physical eating of His flesh (John 6:53).

it is a memorial supper

It is both a memorial supper and a real presence of Christ in the body ("do this in rememberance of me" but also "this is my body"; also see 1 Cor 11 and especially v. 29 where a reference to the real presence is made).

we have our works being mixed in with grace

Yes we do. The Bible tells us so.

3,736 posted on 01/03/2007 4:13:09 PM PST by annalex
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To: Blogger; annalex
annalex covered most of your reply. I only will reply to the following statement:

"is said to confer some special grace upon the partaker which is contributory to salvation."

As you know and most Protestants know, the Eucharist is a Sacrament (one of seven). Being human we have so many temptations, so many issues, so many frustrations, Christ knew this first hand as he was true man. And in his infinite wisdom he left us with the Eucharist. Christ our redeemer gave us this wonderful Sacrament as a balm. Yet it is so much more. Our Lord loves us so much that he gave us the following: "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." Jn 6:54-58.

When you say that the Eucharist "is said to confer some special grace", you know that we base this on the Bible and Our Lord's very words. So, you speak of the Bible and Christ words when you say mockingly "it is said" as if some crazy Catholics spout off the "outlandish" idea of the Eucharist as Sacrament when it is based on what the Bible/Christ said so clearly: "For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."

On top of making the Eucharist seem outlandish you also mock the saving grace that Christ himself speaks of when he says "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day." And further more St. Paul warns the Church about the abuse of this Sacrament: "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." 1 Cor 11:27,29

Finally to underscore your point with more Catholic generalization, you state: "Once again, we have our works being mixed in with grace to give salvation. A non-Biblical idea and a different gospel."

Note that the Eucharist is not a work that we do. You may want to see it that way but completely the opposite is true. The Eucharist has nothing to do with any work we can perform. You couldn't be any more far off. The Eucharist is total gift! It is all Christ! It is in fact Christ! (Body, blood, soul and divinity). The Eucharist is with Christ, in Christ and through Christ. As Catholics we state just before we receive Christ at Mass, reflecting the Centurion in the Gospel, "Lord we are not worthy to receive you but only say the word and we shall be healed." It is all Christ. It is not our work. None whatsoever. Like the grace of salvation it has everything to do with Christ's love and mercy and nothing to do with any works we do. Unless of course we sin mortally before we receive him and receive him anyway. Then the Sacrament instead is not gift but as St. Paul says we "eateth and drinketh damnation to" ourselves. The Eucharist is not a sign of our works but a sign of Christ's love, mercy and grace.

You can choose to reject the Eucharist, but please don't reject it because Catholics think it is a work they can do to gain salvation. It is a gift from God. It is God present to us based only on His promise and has nothing to do with our worth. For even a Priest who unbeknownst to others murders people can "Do this in memory of" Christ. It is pure gift.

So Blogger, reject the Eucharist as pure gift, for that is what the Eucharist is. Know what you reject. It is not just selfish acts by Catholics who think that the Eucharist alone will save them. The Eucharist is love without end, love simply because He is the Christ. I am humbled more and more as I see and live in the love that I am so unworthy of. Jesus Christ, my Lord and King ... I have nothing to give. I only receive. The Word made flesh! To me! Wow!
3,859 posted on 01/04/2007 10:47:59 AM PST by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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