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To: annalex

I wasn't the first one who used the term forgery. I don't believe it is Scriptural.

As far as it being a recording of what someone believed were the beliefs of early Christians, the Muslims believe that we believe that Mary is a member of the Trinity (I can't remember which one falls off, Son or Holy Spirit). Again, this is not evidence that this is an early Christian belief. Adopted later? Yes. But there is no evidence the earliest believers thought about Mary in this manner.


2,906 posted on 12/23/2006 9:43:13 PM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger; annalex
"As far as it being a recording of what someone believed were the beliefs of early Christians, the Muslims believe that we believe that Mary is a member of the Trinity (I can't remember which one falls off, Son or Holy Spirit). Again, this is not evidence that this is an early Christian belief. Adopted later? Yes. But there is no evidence the earliest believers thought about Mary in this manner."

Its the Holy Spirit which falls off, Sura 5:116. Its important to understand that Mohammedanism is an offshoot of Arianism with an intermixture of Arabian paganism. By the time of Mohammad, Arabians at Mecca were actually worshiping little idols of Christ and Mary at the Kabbah and there was an odd "Christian" sect in the area which indeed did worship Mary called Collyridians. Given that Mohammad was influenced by an Arian monk, that Arianism had penetrated the Arabian peninsula, that there was indeed a sect worshiping Mary there, that the Arabians had placed idols of Mary and Christ in the Kabbah and that Mohammad knew about the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity, its easy to understand where these ideas of his came from.

You might find this 8th century critique of Mohammedanism by +John of Damascus interesting. He knew that heresy well, having served the Caliph at Damascus as the Grand Counselor.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

One of the reasons, B, that you will have observed that the catholics and Orthodox here are so conscious of and adamant about Heresy is that its fruit is ALWAYS foul and poisonous. We've been dealing with it for a long, long time and virtually every heresy has its roots, usually, in someone's interpretation of what we all pretty much agree is the canon of scripture or, less likely, of writings which didn't make it into the canon. Heresy, B, rots the soul; it disfigures the brilliant image of God which we all share. It always brings the stench of the tomb and spiritual death. It cleverly worms its way into the minds of Christians and others.

"Just as the fishermen hide the hook with bait and covertly hook the fish, similarly, the crafty allies of the heresies cover their evil teachings and corrupt understanding with pietism and hook the more simple, bringing them to spiritual death." +Isidore of Pelusium
2,919 posted on 12/24/2006 6:08:17 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Blogger; Forest Keeper
there is no evidence the earliest believers thought about Mary in this manner.

The Protoevangelium is evidence that temple virgins were married to custodial marriages so that they not defile the Temple at puberty. This is the only point here. The Church does not teach thaqt definitively, but the doctors of the Church did notice that Luke 1:34 does not quite compute without some similar state of mind at the time of annunciation.

If you want to argue that Luke 1:34 does not definitely proove her perpetual virginity, I agree, -- but it points to it. That was Forest Keeper's question, and I answered it.

2,971 posted on 12/25/2006 9:18:40 PM PST by annalex
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