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To: Blogger
Scripture does no such thing. You are making claims for yourself that are clearly unscriptural.

On the one hand you claim that "brothers" must mean that Mary had other children when it is clear "brothers" has a different meaning than what you attach to it. And, we have the witness of Church, Ecumenical Councils,and Tradition to back that up.

On the other hand, when Jesus calls a young woman Daughter you say He had no children.

That makes no sense.

I have a Daughter I am a Father. Can I both have a daughter and not be a Father? It appears I can in sola sciptura world

It appears that the real meaning of scripture is simply what you say it is. And there is no scriptual authority for your ownself that you can appeal to. You aint mentioned in the Bible.

Now, why don't you show me where anyone else in the Bible called a young woman Daughter daughter and then maybe we would have something objective to go on. Otherwise, all we got is your personal opinons which, as we have illlustrated repeatedly, are wildly opposed to orthodoxy throughout the ages.

2,514 posted on 12/20/2006 3:00:06 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: bornacatholic; Dr. Eckleburg
Now, why don't you show me where anyone else in the Bible called a young woman Daughter daughter and then

So when the prophets called Israel collectively, the Daughter of Zion, did they father each of them? Or give birth to them? Or what exactly?

2,518 posted on 12/20/2006 3:08:56 PM PST by 1000 silverlings (stand up, stand up for Jesus, ye soldiers of the Cross)
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To: bornacatholic

Show me with SCRIPTURE where it is clear that brothers means something other than brothers in the context of Mary.

I'm sorry, but I will take the witness of Scripture itself over the witness of a bunch of 2nd and 3rd sons of European Nobility any day.

When you go to confession, what are the first words out of your mouth to the man you are addressing?

Is he your literal Father? Did your mother have sexual relations with him and sire you?

How about the Pope? Is he your literal father? I doubt that he is (though with the history of Popes, one can never be 100% certain). But, assuming Benedict isn't your literal Father, what is meant by "Holy Father."

Did it take a council getting together to define Father, or "my child", or brother for you (as in Brother Lawrence, etc.,)?

No. Some things are figures of speech whose meaning is obvious. Familial relationships are one of them. Daughter can mean 1)Biological daughter 2)Spiritual daughter.

When looking at Jesus in the full context of Scripture, we find no mention of Jesus ever having been a father.

When looking at the references to Mary however, we see Jesus being called her FIRST born child (by the way, a Jewish man tonight who was quite familiar with Old Testament Scriptures indicated that firstborn DOES indeed indicate her first child among others). He wasn't listed EVER as HER only child. Rather, he was her first born. Next, we see that Jesus is said to have had brothers and sisters who travel with Mary. The boys are named. James, Jude, Joseph and Simon. The brother relationship is reiterated elsewhere outside of the gospels in Pauls letters.

With this in mind, lets go back to our definition. Brother. Does it mean 1)Biological brother 2)Adopted brother 3)Spiritual brother 4)Cousins

Well, Spiritual brother is out because when the presence of his family was made known to Jesus, he contrasted his physical relations with those who followed Him spiritually. THESE are my mother and my brothers and my sisters- not my household relations.

Adopted brother, while possible is not likely There is no indication of Mary and Joseph ever adopting. No first wife is ever mentioned in Scripture for Joseph either. And we do not build doctrine upon what the Bible does NOT say. But, lets hold it, no matter how unlikely for now.

Next we have this idea that they are really cousins. Cousins, huh? Well, there is a word for cousins found in the New Testament. It is Suggenes. The Bible uses is of Elizabeth when Mary comes to visit her. It is also translated Kinsman. But the word here for brothers is Adelphos.

Per the lexicon the meaning of Adelphos is this:
1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3. any fellow or man
4. a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5. an associate in employment or office
6. brethren in Christ
1. his brothers by blood
2. all men
3. apostles
4. Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

Such seems to rule out mere cousins. Plus, tying them as the Bible does to the person of Mary (who is their travelling companion), it truly does seem that these brothers are of Joseph and mary's household and it is well within the bounds of Scripture to say that these are the biological half-brothers of Jesus. Name a Scripture that contradicts that suggestion?

Upon review, it seems clear that the best understanding of the term brothers within the framework of Scripture is biological half-brothers and sons of Mary and Joseph.

1)Joseph knew her not UNTIL (to say that this doesn't mean sexual relations came after dismisses without warrant a strong possibility for the meaning of the word.
2)Jesus had physical brothers and sisters
3)No mention of adoption by Mary or Joseph is ever mentioned in Scripture (we don't make doctrine on what Scripture doesnt' say or even intimate)
4)Jesus is called Mary's 1stborn Son.

The difference between Jesus' brothers and calling the woman Daughter is this - CONTEXT.

Don't cherry pick Scripture. Look at it in its full context. You may reject our conclusion, but you have to make allowance that the view that Mary and Joseph had children is NOT against Scripture.


2,580 posted on 12/20/2006 10:07:16 PM PST by Blogger
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