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Dear Blogger,

I think we will not make any further progress until you understand the Catholic position. I was a devout Protestant for almost four decades, and received my M.Div. from a Presbyterian seminary, so I think I can say that I understand the Protestant perspective. But as a Protestant, I did not understand the Catholic point of view. The Catholic point of view is *completely* different from the Protestant point of view. It is like those drawings where you can see either a rabbit or a duck, or a young woman or an old woman. It seems to me that you do not understand the Catholic point of view, and until you do so, we are just going to be talking past each other, disagreeing about matters that don't deal with the fundamental/foundational differences. I recommend that you read some books on the Catholic perspective, and then rejoin the conversation, and then at least perhaps you will understand where we're coming from, and *what* are the fundamental/foundational differences that distiguish the Catholic and Protestant points of view.

First, I recommend reading the Fathers. Here are some good books:

The Teachings of the Church Fathers by Willis
The History of the Church by Eusebius
The Faith of the Early Fathers (three volumes) by Jurgens
Patrology by Quasetens
Early Christian Fathers by Richardson

Second, read about the ecumenical Councils. I recommend:

The First Seven Ecumenical Councils by Davis The General Councils by Bellito
The Sources of Catholic Dogma by Denzinger
The Christian Faith by Dupuis

Third, read some general works on the Catholic Faith. I recommend:

The Faith of Our Fathers by Gibbons
The Spirit of Catholicism by Karl Adam
One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic by Whitehead
Catechism of the Catholic Church (Second Edition)
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott
An Essay on the Development of Doctrine by Newman

Fourth, I recommend reading about the Catholic view of Scripture. I recommend:

Not by Scripture Alone by Sungenis
Making Senses out of Scripture by Shea
Where we got the Bible by Graham
A Biblical Defense of Catholicism by Armstrong

Fifth, read about the Catholic understanding of Tradition. I recommend:

By What Authority? by Shea
Tradition and Traditions by Congar [a bit pricey]
The Meaning of Tradition by Congar [more affordable]

When you have read that, then let's talk.

-A8

A8.
I believe that I DO understand the Catholic position and hold both an MDiv from a fully accredited Seminary and a M.A. in History (with an emphasis on Medieval studies) from a secular University.

I also am aware that the Catholic point of view is completely different than that of the Protestants. What seems to you, concerning what I understand, may simply be your misunderstanding of my trying to draw out the implications of Catholicism's belief system.

I am Protestant. I will always be Protestant - so "further progress" as you MAY define it may not be possible.

I too am frustrated with these conversations because I have been accused of believing that which I don't believe (everything from denying the divinity of Jesus Christ to denying the Trinity). While I am being lectured about "understanding the Catholic point of view" it seems very little effort is being made to understand what I am saying. Instead, I'm finding out that "firstborn doesn't mean firstborn" "brother doesn't mean brother" "Mother doesn't imply that one gave a person a beginning" "until CAN't mean that anything happend afterwards" and is doesn't mean is.

No allowance is given for even the POSSIBILITY that these Greek words could mean what they normally mean - why? Because a council declared something contrary to the normal meaning. In other words, Tradition supercedes any normal meaning within the words of Scripture. This is a dangerous thing.

You are right though. We likely will not come to any agreement. I take Scripture and apply it to my life within its Scriptural context. Catholics take Scripture as interpreted through the eyes of the Church hierarchy and make anyone who disagrees with them anathema (at least they did until Vatican II).

Sorry, I know that the Holy Spirit resides in me. I have the necessary understanding of principles of biblical interpretation to look at Scripture in a learned fashion. I do not see anything resembling the Roman Catholic hierarchy in scripture.