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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; TomSmedley; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Frumanchu; nobdysfool; ...
The problem I have with adult baptism is exactly how you defined it -- that a person is not saved or a person doesn't know he's saved somehow until he makes a public declaration of the fact. That sentence is contrary to Reformed thinking which declares a person is saved, not by his own choice or even by his own awareness, but only by Christ on the cross.

I think the Reformed Baptist view would be to agree with you that of course God does all the saving, and that the ultimate truth from God's POV is that it takes place via predestination from before the foundations AND that it happened on the cross. In addition, it is also possible to speak of salvation in human terms, and that takes place at the moment of true faith. Hence, we see this expressed in passages such as one of your favorites and mine, Eph. 2:8-9. Grace through faith equals salvation. Believer's baptism is a public recognition of salvation and what God has done for us in these terms. I say "believer's baptism" instead of "adult baptism" because we frequently baptize young children, who have reasonably demonstrated true faith.

FK: "I fully agree with you that the people of God are the people of God from before the beginning. But if part of Baptism is recognizing and celebrating that fact about any individual, I don't see how it can be done without at least an honest profession of faith."

Well, which is it? Are God's people named from the beginning or is it "done with at least an honest profession of faith?" See the problem?

It is both, and as I alluded to above, there are at least three honest ways of looking at the timing of salvation (baptism not being one of them :). Before the foundations, on the cross, or at the point of belief. I believe all are perfectly correct because all work perfectly together. All are required to happen for one to go to Heaven, and all DO happen for the elect. Since the time of Christ, the believer's baptism recognizes that all three are complete.

Baptism is not regeneration. Baptism is a confirmation of God's sign and seal made with His children from before the foundation of the world. Regeneration is God breaking into time and making us aware of that fact.

Yes to all! So, why do you baptize infants? :) I'm just kidding, but I honestly do not understand how baptism can be a confirmation of anything (from our POV) if the faith element of salvation is still missing. Of course, as parents, and as a church body, we WANT the infant to grow into faith and we pledge our Godly efforts to encourage that. It seems to me, though, that to confirm it in a person's infancy is a bit premature. As I'm sure you know, and for the benefit of anyone who doesn't, instead of infant baptism we do a "baby dedication" ceremony. It is really for the adults, especially the parents, and in it we all as a body pledge to be helpful in raising the child as a Christian-to-be. In our church, the "success rate" is quite high, but I wouldn't call it high enough to be able to "confirm" anything at the infant stage.

Plus, and this is no small argument, to require a spoken oath of an individual in order to be made a part of a community, smacks of certain secret societies which is not really a good thing. We can announce our membership and be welcomed into a particular congregation, but this is an act of fraternity. Our adoption into God's family occurred from before time and is an act of paternity.

Paul tells us in Rom 10:9 : "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." So, I'm not really sure what you mean about secret societies. I have always thought that public professions were to be encouraged. When we require a public profession in order to join our church, from the person it is a sign of obedience to God, in our eyes.

And, what you say about adoption is absolutely true. Therefore, I suppose the question becomes "when is it proper to recognize what God Himself has done"? I think the Baptist approach is just to have a little more surety about what it IS that God actually HAS done. :)

Therefore the purpose of baptism is not our declaration to God of faith. Baptism is God's declaration to us of His abiding love.

Yes! For while a declaration of faith is made at the believer's baptism, it is not the first. A prior one must have been made for it to be proper to proceed with the baptism, in our view.

I just ordered what looks to be a great book edited by Gregg Strawbridge, "The Case for Covenantal Infant Baptism," although two "g's" in "Gregg" is a little unsettling. 8~)

I'm a big fan of TMQ, a football column on espn.com. The author is Gregg Easterbrook, so two "g's" is OK with me. :) The book you ordered sounds great. Please share when you've had a chance to go through it. The snippet was interesting because at a recent baptism, our pastor, for the first time I can think of, made a special point of noting that children who have not been baptized as believers are technically not members of the church, even if their parents are baptized as believers. Of course, there is zero difference as to their participation in any church activities, even the Supper. I actually didn't know what our church's official position on that was. I will be interested to hear what your book says.

14,763 posted on 05/19/2007 1:38:37 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan
As a Reformed Baptist, I can say we baptize believers because we believe it is the Scriptural model. Here is a good example:

Acts 8

5Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

6And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

7For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.

8And there was great joy in that city. BR>
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.

11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip...

26And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
14,773 posted on 05/19/2007 9:11:03 AM PDT by Blogger
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