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To: wmfights; annalex; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
The Apostles go into great detail about the qualities that individuals should exhibit to be selected by their congregations to be pastors

They don't talk about pastors but presbyters (priests), episkops (bishops), diakonos (deacons), etc. Perhaps your Protestant Bible calls them "pastors" but not so in Greek. In fact I can only think in Eph 4:11 where the Greek term poimen (shepherd) is translated as "pastor" in the entire NT.

The decision making in the early church was done by the congregation, or by groups selected by the congregation

The Council of Jerusalem was hardly a democratic decision. The major players, the apostles, decided. +Peter spoke and everyone listened. The Apostles were picked "autocratically" by Christ: basically he said "drop what you are doing and follow me."

+Paul was anything but a democrat. he expected the church leaders to be leaders, bishops to oversee, deacons to help carry out the administration of the Church.

The solid organization of the Church is evident before the end of the 1st century. I aloready referred to +Paul addressing the bishops (50-60 AD).

Christ was no longer there to pick and choose his disciples; so the disciples had to do it themselves. The elders, the experienced, were left to do that. It was an orderly succession, not a wild mushroom farm event, where every Joe could just start preaching.

You just consider orthodoxy as 'autocratic.' Well, either you are orthodox or you are not. Either what you believe is true faith or it is not. You can't be orthodox "a little bit." There is no gray zone, there is no wiggle room. And it's not a personal religion, tailored to your liking.

Once you start wiggling you end up with 33,000 denominations all claiming to be the "true church."

By the way, the clergy have less authority over you than your local traffic cop or your boss. They can't fire you. They can't arrest you. How can they be "autocratic?"

14,209 posted on 05/08/2007 8:51:09 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; wmfights; annalex; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg
Christ was no longer there to pick and choose his disciples; so the disciples had to do it themselves. The elders, the experienced, were left to do that. It was an orderly succession, not a wild mushroom farm event, where every Joe could just start preaching.

And when the Orthodox split in 1000AD, did the apostlic succession go to Rome or stayed with the Orthodox? Who had the legal right to "lead" the flock?

14,215 posted on 05/08/2007 9:04:54 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: kosta50; annalex; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
The Council of Jerusalem was hardly a democratic decision.

Acts 15:11 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.

It may have been a heated discussion, but the mere fact that it is a discussion sheds light on the structure of the early church.

Also in Acts we are given another example of how leadership was determined locally.

Acts 20:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers...

It is the fruits of the Spirit that reveal the qualities of leadership, not a monobishophoric hierarchy.

14,251 posted on 05/08/2007 11:50:01 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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To: kosta50; annalex; Forest Keeper; blue-duncan; Quix; Kolokotronis; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD
Once you start wiggling you end up with 33,000 denominations all claiming to be the "true church."

It's nice to see the number climbing. The last time I saw this thrown out it was 20,000. :-0

14,252 posted on 05/08/2007 11:53:08 AM PDT by wmfights (LUKE 9:49-50 , MARK 9:38-41)
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