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To: topcat54

Coming from a Baptist background, we do not call them “sacraments.” Rather, we call them ordinances. We do not believe that they confer any special “grace”, though those who participate are certainly blessed for having done so. Christ ordained that we should participate in them, however, or lack of participation in them does not in any way diminish the fact we are saved. Sanctification is a process which ultimately culminates in our being like Christ in Heaven. We will never fully reach sanctification here on earth. But we participate out of obedience and gratitude towards our Savior. Those who neglect the ordinances are missing out on a vital part of growth as Christians. But, they are not salvific. They picture what Christ did. And, as we obey Christ in our participation, I believe we draw even closer to Him in our understanding. That may be what you all refer to as the conference of grace. But, we Baptists want to be very careful in preserving the definition of grace as God’s unmerited favor and by saying conference of grace occurs upon baptism and participating in communion (which we usually call Lord’s Supper), it can lead to a misunderstanding of what is meant (not that I am saying that you are conveying a salvific understanding to the sacraments).


14,114 posted on 05/07/2007 10:24:19 AM PDT by Blogger
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To: Blogger; wmfights; Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Frumanchu
Coming from a Baptist background, we do not call them “sacraments.” Rather, we call them ordinances.

Correct, because in the Zwinglian model they do not confer grace.

We do not believe that they confer any special “grace”, though those who participate are certainly blessed for having done so.

Can you define the nature of this “blessing” scripturally? If they are not a means of grace (i.e., that which builds us up wrt our salvation in Christ), then what other sort of blessing is implied?

Christ ordained that we should participate in them, however, or lack of participation in them does not in any way diminish the fact we are saved.

Let’s not confuse terms. Christ said, “if you love Me you will keep My commandmants.” The means of grace do not contribute to our justification. That rests entirely on the work of Christ. However, part of our salvation is our sanctification, which we may not neglect to the peril of our soul. The means of grace (or “evangelical graces” per the WCF) relates us to our sanctification. If you say you belong to Christ yet neglect habitually His sacraments, is that not hypocrisy?

Does good fruit grow on a bad tree? A good tree will produce good fruit. A bad tree will produce bad fruit. Participation in the means of grace is evidence (good fruit). But more than that they are like fertilizer, to strengthen the fruit that is being produced by the tree.

I think you have a stunted (baptistic) view of what salvific means in toto. Thus the view of (optional) ordinances vs. sacraments as a true means of grace.

Regarding the Lord’s Supper, the Second Helvetic Confession puts it this way:

Sacramental Eating of the Lord. Besides the higher spiritual eating there is also a sacramental eating of the body of the Lord by which not only spiritually and internally the believer truly participates in the true body and blood of the Lord, but also, by coming to the Table of the Lord, outwardly receives the visible sacrament of the body and blood of the Lord. To be sure, when the believer believed, he first received the life-giving food, and still enjoys it. But therefore, when he now receives the sacrament, he does not receive nothing. For he progresses in continuing to communicate in the body and blood of the Lord, and so his faith is kindled and grows more and more, and is refreshed by spiritual food. For while we live, faith is continually increased. And he who outwardly receives the sacrament by true faith, not only receives the sign, but also, as we said, enjoys the thing itself. Moreover, he obeys the Lord's institution and commandment, and with a joyful mind gives thanks for his redemption and that of all mankind, and makes a faithful memorial to the Lord's death, and gives a witness before the Church, of whose body he is a member. Assurance is also given to those who receive the sacrament that the body of the Lord was given and his blood shed, not only for men in general, but particularly for every faithful communicant, to whom it is food and drink unto eternal life.
This link might offer more insight into the Reformed perspective.
14,122 posted on 05/07/2007 10:50:36 AM PDT by topcat54 ("... knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience." (James 1:3))
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