I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name. – Isaia 65:1
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. – Romans 10:19-21
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. – Matt 23:37-38
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. – John 4:21-23
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. – John 10:16
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. – John 12:20-24
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. – Rev 1:7
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. – Isa 45:23
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. – Phl 2:9-11
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist. – Matt 17:9-13
The Spirit leads me to investigate many things – among them are ancient manuscripts, Jewish mysticism, Catholic catechism, books and journals, correspondence (including on this forum.) But I do not embrace a thing unless He leans me to do so – and then in virtually every case, He confirms it through Scripture as well.
That is why I’m very careful to delineate between leanings in the spirit and mere “musings.”
Logic, physics, mathematics, geometry, etc. do not apply to the Creator - though they apply quite nicely to the (physical) creation.
Me: Whether the Gentiles were to be included or not is a story unto itself. Jesus never taught it and Acts 13:46 suggests it was an aftertought.
You: I strongly disagree. It was taught in the Song of Moses (Torah) and in the prophets: They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. – Deut 32:21
Yeah, in the OT the Gentiles were included alright — in God's wrath, that's for sure. Read on, why stop at verse 21; go the next three verses and see that this "inclusion" was anything but "grafting" the Gentiles to the Jewish vine; rather, it is a declaration of genocide!
Some "inclusion" AG.
I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name. – Isaia 65:1
Here we have a similar misrepresentation as in Deuteronomy 32, shown to be out-of-context as is manifest simply by reading more than one select verse.
Chapter 65 of Isaiah is all about the Jews, not Gentiles. God is angry with idolatrous Jews. It is clear that throught the chapter, in context, God speaks about the Jews, not the Gentiles.
[Note: a point of clarification is needed here: the OT uses the word goyim to include the non-believeing (idolatrous) people, Jews OR Gentiles. The only way to know which 'goyim' are spoken of is in context]
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you [Deu 32]. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people [Isa 65]. – Romans 10:19-21
This is an excellent example how +Paul mixed and matched unrelated OT quotes to OT-ignorant Romans to support his teaching. Both quotes (Deuter 32, and Isa 65) are not even remotely related to anything about God intending to include the Gentiles in His fold.
As I have shown in my previous post, Deut 32 is actually a call for genocide against those whom the OT God intensly dislikes rather than including the gentiles into the Jewish "vine."
Two things here sping to mind: (1) Christ was sent only for the lost sheep of Israel, not for the Gentiles as well. (2) Gentiles who wish to hang around their "master's" tables can benefit from the "crumbs" of their master's blessings. Only the "dogs" who believe in their masters will benefit as well (provided they don't bite the hand that feeds them). In other words, submissive and cooperative Gentiles will benefit but will never become like their masters; man and dogs will never be the same.
Let us not forget that any inclusion of Gentiles was unthinkable in those days. The Jews could not even eat with the Gentiles or form close relationships, converts notwithstanding. The only way a Gentile could be "grafted" onto the Jewish vine was for him or her to become Jewish.
No inclusion here.
Mat 23 is all about Pharisees and Jews. No inclusion here. we are talking about the lost sheep of the house of Israel all along.
A bit of contextual explanation is needed here. Samaritans use their own version of the Old Testament as their Scripture (in verse 25 the woman says "'"I know that Messiah is coming; when that One comes, He will declare all things to us'"). The Jews considered them to be false believers.
Christ is telling the woman that they don't know what they believe, and that seeking God through the Samaritan heresy is wrong. For, their true salvation is in the Jewish faith, not their distortion of it (funny, the rabbis used the same argument in Jamnia against Christians).
In other words, since they already claim the God of Abraham, they need to worship Him in true spirit (as the Jews do).
There is nothing here to indicate a general call of inclusion of the Gentiles into the Jewish vine, as a second-class add-on, but nothing short of full conversion to Judaism. certainly Christ never taught that Gentiles were to forsake the circumcision or dietary restrictions and still be considered true believers. Not even Samaritans whose only Scripture is the OT were acceptable because their OT fell short of the Jewish interpretation of it.
In context of Mat 15:24, the "sheep" in question are the lost sheep of the House of Israel (not of this fold), the only purpose for Christ's coming accoridng to Matthew. It is not an unequivocal call for gentiles to 'join' without adhering to Judaism.
The call to follow Him did not mean it's okay not to follow the Jewish customs for anyone who wants to convert.
There is nothing here to suggest the Greeks could join without circumcision, or dietary restrictions. Nothing short of becoming fully Jewish. Either you were a Jew or a Gentile.
You then quote Mat 11: 11:15 and Matt 17:9-13 (both of which speak of Elijah).
As you know, Elijah never died, so incarnation is not an issue, but I am talking about the disciples saying Christ was John the Baptist and Jeremiah (both of whom were dead).
Cause/effect cannot be dismissed from creation or “making.” When the maker or creator is God Himself, the cause is in timelessness though the effect is in time. Logic, physics, mathematics, geometry, etc. do not apply to the Creator - though they apply quite nicely to the (physical) creation
That's lovely, but the Book of Genesis tells us that God created the light, the universe, the sun and the moon, the earth, etc. (in other words the time as well because we are talking 'days' even if they are not our days).
In that real-time, in the real creation (not before all foundations of the world), God said 'let Us make man!' No need to go into cause/effect and relativistic theories of man; the Bible plainly says man did not exist until some time and was not breathing (alive) until that time when God breathed the breath of life into his lifeless nostrils.
He who lives in eternity knows of Adam from all eternity, but Adam did not exist from all eternity. Therefore knowledge and existence are not one and the same. Adam's soul did not pre-exist his body.