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To: kosta50

I have ready plenty of COMMENTARIES with which a commentator has tried to make his viewpoint fit the text. The lexicon was specific. No. I do not trust your Greek Orthodox Source. Mary's perpetual virginity wasn't a doctrine until after Jesus's time. It was asserted in some gnostic sources and then picked up on by the Roman church at a time where true heresy began to slip in. Yes, UNTIL can mean these things, but when found with other words it does NOT. The GOC has a vested interest in interpreting that way. In the Hebrews passage, which you quoted from the same source, they imply that the Bible says that Jesus was the first begotten WORD - and somehow that negates Mary's first begotten Son. Number one, Jesus as the WORD is not found in that passage. It was dishonest and showed the agenda from the beginning. I gave you scripture that indicated that Jesus would be the firstborn of many brethren (those of us who have been adopted and have become sons and daughters of God). You have ignorred that.

Saying that just because they speak Greek that they the best sources to go to regarding the issue is fallacious. Koine Greek and Modern Greek are two different things.

I didn't address the woman behold your son passage because the argument doesn't make sense. John was Jesus' beloved apostle. His brothers had not shown themselves at that point to be the great pillars that they would become when they became believers. Jesus was entrusting Mary to someone trustworthy. It in no way disqualifies Mary from having had other biological children.


1,395 posted on 12/14/2006 8:00:13 AM PST by Blogger
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To: Blogger; adiaireton8
Blogger, the prototokos means more than just "firstborn." In Christ's case it does mean firstborn Word because He is the only One of His kind.

And He is first in everything as a Man. He is Man the way God created man. We are not.

Adopted is not the same as being of the same blood. We are His step-brothers.

No one can be a true brother to Christ. You, of course, are free to believe otherwise. But that's not what Christianity believed all along.

Even if the ridiculous Protestant notion hat Mary did have children after Christ were true, they would have been only human, with one nature and one will, and therefore essentially different from Him. Christ is Unique. He was not firstborn in the human sense, because He was not "made" but rather He took on human nature and became Man; the first and the last; the only.

There is none like Him. There can be none like Him. No man can be His true brother. That much should be obvious to every Christian. Believing anything other than that is indeed something docetists & al would believe, a heresy.

As regards your comments on "Woman behold your son" all I can say there are laws. The laws prevented a woman to go wherever she pleased. Her true sons would have legal rights to their Mother. Besides, following your thinking, all apostles, save for +John, were worthless cowards when they scattered and pretended they didn't know their Lord.

Do you for a moment think that Jesus loved +John more than His own blood "brothers?" God is nor partial. Do you think His blood "brothers" would not have loved their own Mother? You don't think they would have raised legal issues with +John taking custody of their Mother? And do you think the Jewish and Roman authorities would have listened to +John's argument that His Lord, who had been condemned to death as a common criminal, told him to behold His Mother while dying on the Cross? That would really carry a "lot" of legal weight, Blogger.

1,403 posted on 12/14/2006 9:25:40 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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