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To: Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings
It would be irrational for such a one to believe that God has never not known us

In a sense that he knows that we would be born, live and die and how we will be judged, all at the same "time," yes! But that's hardly something we could call "rational!" Amazing, yes, rational definitely not.

To imply from this that he has prefabricated our souls is neither logical not Christian. Among the Jews, only the Pharisees accepted such pagan, neo-Platonistic notions, but not all Jews by any measure, especially not the Sadducees.

The pre-existence of the souls is intimately related to re-incarnation, which the Church always rejected. But Pharisees believed in it (when Jesus asked "But who do you say that I am?" [Mat 16:15], the disciples said John the Baptist, Elijah, Jeremiah, etc.). However, the bible does not teach reincarnation or the pre-existence of the souls.

Some early second century Christians believed in pre-existence of the souls, such as +Justin Martyr and +Clement of Alexandria, as many of the early Christian beliefs were a mix of various sects.

Origen (late second century) taught it and was condemned specifically for his teaching of pre-existence of the souls (and universal salvation) in 553 AD by the Fifth Œcumenical Council.

I am not sure what Luther and Protestants believe, but I would imagine there is a rainbow of beliefs in that regard in those communities.

This belief, on the other hand, deeply rooted in Platonism, is the core of the Gnostic amalgam of beliefs, as well as of Asian (pagan) religions. As such the pre-existence of the souls is expressly pagan (and Pharisaical Judaism was tainted by it) and un-Christian.

Acceptance of the resurrection, by necessity, rejects reincarnation and the belief in the pre-existence of the souls.

13,859 posted on 05/03/2007 7:50:14 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; 1000 silverlings; betty boop; Quix; hosepipe; .30Carbine
Thank you so much for sharing your insights!

I was not suggesting re-incarnation in my comments.

Rather, as always, my theme is “to God be the glory!”

In other words, we cannot superimpose our concept of an arrow of time onto God. We cannot say that there was ever a point at which He did not know us. We cannot remove ourselves from time to become objective observers and make such a determination.

Time is a part of the Creation, not a boundary or restriction to the Creator.

I suspect it is either very difficult or perhaps even impossible, for some of us to conceptualize timelessness as compared to unbounded time such as eternity past and eternity future.

As created beings, time (and space) frame our sense of reality. And God speaks to us in Scripture using those frames, which is to say this heaven and earth. The Final Cause, the flow from beginning to end, Alpha to Omega - the purpose of this heaven and earth - is revealed as the next heaven and earth:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Gen 1:1

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. – Matt 24:36

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Rev 1:8

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. – Rev 21:6

From Revelation 21 and 22 we can understand there will be some type of space and time in the next heaven and earth. But I assert that we should not presuppose that it will be the same as it is in this heaven and earth.

13,863 posted on 05/03/2007 8:50:58 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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