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To: annalex
Ignatius used the word 'Catholic' in the sense of the church being 'universal', which is what the mystical church is Do you know that because your half-educated pastor told you, or you've been there and talked to St. Ingatius?

I know that beause that is what the word 'Catholic' means in Greek.

There is nothing 'Roman' about it.

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop. See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Yes, and the word Bishop is in the Bible, it is simply a minster who is an overseer.

Peter states that the chief Bishop is Christ.(1Pe.2:25) What isn't in the Bible are Cardinals, Archbishops and Popes, who outrank Christ!

Was the "bishop" also a mystical one?

There are two aspects to the church, one the mystical part, in which all true believers are part of Christ's body, being His bride(Eph.1, 5).

That is the church as an organism.

Then there is the Church as an Organization for which Christ supplies Pastors, Deacons, Bishops to lead and protect it (Eph.4).

The RCC is neither.

The early churches had nothing that could identify them with the Roman Catholic Church today, including a 'Priest class'.

Once more, you have the fantasies, I have the quote above.

Once more, you reject clear scripture.

All Ignatius stated is that those Ordinances of Baptism and the Lord's supper should be administered by ministers, but they are not a special caste, since all spiritual gifts are equal (1Cor.12) and there is no special priest caste, since all believers are priests and have direct access to God, as Peter states.

Romanism did not appear until the 4th century when it combined with the State to make a Church/State religion as found in the Vatican today.

13,854 posted on 05/03/2007 4:58:39 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
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To: fortheDeclaration; annalex; kosta50

“Romanism did not appear until the 4th century when it combined with the State to make a Church/State religion as found in the Vatican today.”

Where in heaven’s name did you get this idea? Your knowledge of the One Church of the first millenium is limited at best. Frankly, it appears to me that many Protestants view the early Church through a lens distorted by the upheavals of the Protestant Reformation, the Counter Reformation and medieval Western Christianity. Remember that in the Christian East there never was a Reformation, arguably because there was no need for one. In the 4th century, the great sees of Christendom, at least insofar as size and civilization were concerned, were located East of the Adriatic. The only Patriarchial See in the West was Rome and while it held a primacy of honor at least and had produced and would produce some few great Fathers of The Church, it was really pretty small potatoes compared to the Eastern Patriarchates. When Constantine the Great legalized The Church and called the Council of Nicea, the overwhelming number of attendees were eastern hierarchs, not Romans. The result of that Council was neither what Constantine, a man with Arian sympathies, intended or expected.The Church which was legalized by Constantine and held the Council of Nicea was NOT the Roman Catholic Church your spiritual forebears rebelled against in the 1500s.

You Western Christians are free to argue with Rome all you want, call it all the names you want. For us in the East it looks like a fight between a parent and wayward children. It is no fight of our making. But it is offensive when you use your 16th century or later ecclesiastical mythology to bash Rome with what is in fact a distortion of our Eastern Christian history.


13,855 posted on 05/03/2007 6:03:37 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: fortheDeclaration

Romanism did not appear until the 4th century when it combined with the State to make a Church/State religion as found in the Vatican today.
= = =

INDEED.

Political ENGULFMENT is not at all the same thing as God’s anointing or blessing or approval.


13,857 posted on 05/03/2007 7:05:32 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: fortheDeclaration; Kolokotronis

I know what “catholic” generally means, but St. Ignatius used it in the sense in which the Catholic (Roman) ecclesiology teaches: that the Catholic Church is hierarchical and sacramental.

For the rest, I refer you to the excellent Kolokotronis’ post 13,855.


13,877 posted on 05/03/2007 1:58:33 PM PDT by annalex
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