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To: AlbionGirl; DarthVader
Jefferson, that good old slave owner, creates a bill of rights that is and becomes a rebuke unto himself. I see God's hand in that. Jefferson and Adams both died on the same day, the 4th of July, in the same year.

Hi AG! What's even weirder is that both died to the day on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. What are the odds? :)

13,731 posted on 04/30/2007 1:09:52 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
Hi FK. Founding Fathers were an unequaled gift. Truly renaissance men. I would include Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt in that list too.

I don't believe Abraham Lincoln has an historical peer. He clearly saw the tragedy and savagery that was the status quo and that which also lied ahead, but he was brilliantly heroic and he paid the ultimate price. Teddy said the following and we should take heed:

"It is more important that we should show ourselves honest, brave, truthful, and intelligent than that we should own all the railways and grain elevators in the world. We have fallen heirs to the most glorious heritage a people ever received and each of us must do his part if we wish to show that this nation is worthy of its good fortune."

It was said of Franklin and Teddy that Franklin had a first rate temperament and that Teddy had a first-rate mind, and I think that's true.

When I try to find equal men in the history of Italy, I'm not so fortunate.

Some of the Roman Emperors were really very impressive, Augustus, Trajan, etc., but the beastliness of the Roman Empire, best exemplified by their practice of crucifixion (though I think inherited from the Carthaginians) gives enormous pause, regardless of rationale. All that said, I think much of the population in the areas the Roman Empire had made its own, preferred to be under the yoke of Rome than under the yoke of their own leaders, and that says a lot too. St. Paul doesn't seem to despise his own Roman citizenship. I won't go so far as to say he seems proud of it, but he seems to value it, and I don't think that's solely because he could appeal to it when they were hot to hang him.

During one of my more recent trips to Italy, my cousin (a lawyer, like you, FK) was whirling me around every possible nook and cranny of Rome, remarking on the prowess of the Romans and then ending his tour-guide like summary with erano delinquente, pero. The best part of Rome -outside the ruins- was the Jewish quarter. I was hoping to find a bagel there. :)

All I wanted was some toast. Regular English-like toast with sweet butter, good English jam and good English tea. I'd been hitting the espresso hard, and I was having a really hard time sleeping. Thought the Jewish quarter was the most likely place I might be able to get close to a slice or facsimile of that species of civilized. No such luck or any points for historical perspicuity.

Got a great hair-cut, some really good shoes and clothes, excellent food and table wine. Got to see this wonderful map room that I think was part of the Vatican. Went to the opera and sat their thinking, my own life story is a lot better than this; why am I here? That's why I don't like opera, it's a garish underachiever.

But who was the Italian Jefferson? Who was the Italian Lincoln? Who was the Italian Roosevelt? I could summon up no name, with the exception of Machiavelli. I don't think him an equal to the American greats, but I believe him to be a man of influence in political thought.

In Italy, at one time, Machiavelli symbolism was expressed with a two-faced head. Think Bill Clinton. Though I think Machiavelli would have despised the man, because he would have found him unforgivably vulgar. He probably would have liked Hillary more, if he could have forgiven her dull wit.

Anyway, we are blessed here. All 'religions' and sects and communions are not only tolerated, they are accepted without rancor.

It is as Paul Johnson (Historian and all-around truthful fellow) says:

"The U.S. is the nearest thing to a microcosm of world society, with every people represented in its vast democracy. This is why I regard anti-Americanism as racism; it, in effect, amounts to a hatred of humanity itself."

Blessings, FK.

13,751 posted on 04/30/2007 2:08:03 PM PDT by AlbionGirl
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