[kosta50]

in the absence of time, events cannot occur and in the absence of space, things cannot exist

Catchy phrase, A-G, however it seems to me to be self-contradicting by suggesting that:

(a) "space" was created before "things" were (for, otherwise, things would not be able to exist by occupying it), and
(b) for "space" to be created (an event), "time" had to exist first.

Unfortunately, this still doesn't define what "space" is, and gives no clues whence did time come from and, paradoxically, "when?"

The "creation" of time in absence of matter and space is meaningless because such creation would by itself be an "event." Which means "time" was never created but had to exist forever!

One way to circumvent this self-contradiction and avoid making time into something eternally "divine," is to posit that everything was created at once, but that contradicts the Bible.

There was only one theologian, as far as I know, who (because of a rusty knowledge of Greek) mistranslated Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) and said that God created the world at once! (simul in Latin)*, and that man was +Augustine of Hippo. Needless to say, the Church rejected such a notion as it contradicts the Scripture.

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*"Qui vivit in aeternum creavit omnia simul." [Sirach 18:1] But the Greek text says otherwise: "ὁ ζῶν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα ἔκτισεν τὰ πάντα κοινῇ." The last word koine does not mean simultaneously or at once, but common, defiled, ordinary..

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[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your reply, insights and challenge, dear brother in Christ!

Lurkers: kosta50 and I agree on the important Spiritual matters, these are merely differences in our science and math. Not a “biggie.”

Since you raised Sirach, I should hasten to point out the Gosse Omphalos hypothesis, also known as “last Thursdayism” which says that God created an old looking universe, e.g. a few minutes ago, last Thursday, 6,000 years ago, etc. It is a hypothesis which can neither be affirmed nor falsified by the scientific method – but is widely held among Christians who receive the Scriptures as inerrant and literal but reject “Young Earth Creationism.”

The "creation" of time in absence of matter and space is meaningless because such creation would by itself be an "event." Which means "time" was never created but had to exist forever!

God is not limited by our mortal reasoning of what is possible.

Let me try this once again.

The measurement of the CMB in the 1960’s established that the universe is expanding and thus there was a beginning of real space and real time in the physical realm. It was celebrated as a confirmation of this phrase of this verse:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. – Gen 1:1

In other words, science was saying that before there was a beginning, there was no matter, no energy, no physical laws, no qualia, no thing, no space, no time and therefore no physical causality.

It was not merely a vacuum, it was void. There were no boundaries of any kind. All that is before the beginning is singular, i.e. God.

This means that in order for there to be a beginning there had to be an uncaused cause of it. Consider the void, only God could make a beginning ex nihilo.

As you say, the beginning itself is an event, that means that God created real time and real space in the beginning.

The spiritual understanding I have of Genesis 1-4 is that it is a summary of God creating both the spiritual realm and the physical realm. Consider also Colossians 1. God creates both spiritual and physical realms and beings – consisting of both form and power. Therefore, it is quite apparent that God created geometry (space/time continuum of unknown dimensions) which applies to both spiritual and physical realms, in the beginning:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Col 1:15-20

Turning to the physical realm for a moment, since that is all science is able to observe --- it is also apparent that God created physical causation and physical laws in the beginning of the physical realm and thus there was the mechanism for increasing physical order.

It doesn’t matter what cosmology a person holds – big bang, cyclic, ekpyrotic, multi-verse, etc - because every single one of them must have pre-existing geometry (space/time) in order to have physical causation. They cannot obviate God. Period.

Back in the day when man was able to believe in a steady state universe, he was able to obviate God and laugh at the Godhead as the consequence of an overactive imagination. Why? Because in a steady state universe, God must exist “in” space and time!

It was one of the many ways man anthropomorphized God.

Continuing on the issues at hand ... how one looks at the question of which came first in the physical realm – energy/matter or geometry – depends a lot on his understanding of the quantum world.

On the one hand are those who lean to high energy particle physics. These have a tendency to consider the particles such as photons as real and local (even though they often recognize that is not established.) IOW, science has observed non-locality – that measuring one of two entangled photons will determine the other regardless of spatial separation, whether 11 kilometers, across the solar system, galaxy, universe. Also, ordinary matter (the Higgs boson) has not yet been observed or created by either Fermilab or CERN and thus there are new theories, e.g. that matter in four dimensions may be a shadow of momentum components in a fifth dimension.

But I digress…

The other side (obviously I am one) – leans to quantum field theory. A field is defined as existing in all points of space/time, the geometry of the physical realm. Thus phenomena such as non-locality and quantum superposition and matter become an issue of the geometry itself.

Technically as to how the physicists “do” science it doesn’t matter much whether they use quantum mechanics or quantum field theory – but it does matter how one visualizes physical reality.

The former see the uncaused cause causing energy (e.g. big bang) which as in the case of matter/anti-matter colliding in a burst of gamma radiation, expanded the geometry of the energy. Thus, in that view space/time is created by the energy/matter, i.e. it inflates exponentially.

On my side of the aisle, God creates a speck of geometry (space and time of unknown dimensions) which causes vibration (string theory) and gives rise to quantum fields and therefore the matter/anti-matter collisions which result in a burst of gamma radiation, inflating the geometry exponentially.

Or the "chicken and egg" problem of energy/matter v geometry could simply be that God created both simultaneously...