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To: Alamo-Girl; marron; hosepipe; Kolokotronis; kosta50
No fair, I thought I was the greatest of sinners and the worst of heretics!

No fair!!!! I thought that was me!!!!!!!

As to the latter characterization at least, let me offer proof. :^)

The Protestant denominations tend to have little use for classical philosophy on the grounds that it isn't "scripturally based." I imagine this has to do with St. Paul, who was so "thoroughly Jewish" that he regarded all classical philosophy as "pagan," and thus not trustworthy (according to Voegelin). It took "young radicals" like Justin Martyr to see that Christianity actually validated the insights of the great pagans, such as Plato and Aristotle; whereby in due course they entered into Christian theology, "by the back door" as it were.

Justin at least saw that this Christian theology that he encountered was a more powerful "philosophy" than any offered by the philosophical schools of his time -- or of any other time, I might add. One could further say (as Voegelin does) that without this connection to the classical past becoming explicit over time, Christianity might not have survived. If it were to depend for its life on its identification as a radical Jewish sect, it probably would not have survived....

Christian life, it seems to me, is the life of both faith and reason. The orthodox confessions of Christianity -- Eastern and Roman -- set great store by the life of reason as set forth in the classical philosophy of ancient Greece. The Eastern Orthodox give pride of place to Plato; the Roman Church after Thomas, to Aristotle (whereby you get Plato, too; for Plato was Aristotle's great teacher and a profound influence on his work. Plus Aristotle was the great teacher of Alexander, whose imperial expansion helped spread Christianity to the four quarters of the then-known world).

It seems to me that the Gospel of John has a strongly Platonist "flavor" to it. Which might have something to do with the fact that certain of my Protestant friends, whose formation is essentially Pauline, find John so puzzling....

I am now going to go hunker down in the bomb shelter.... :^)

Thank you oh so much, my dearest sister in Christ, for your splendid essay/post!

12,645 posted on 04/14/2007 12:27:29 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
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To: betty boop; Kolokotronis; Alamo-Girl
No fair, I thought I was the greatest of sinners and the worst of heretics!

This is one contest I prefer to observe from the sidelines, if you know what I mean...

I'll be in the cheering section. Go, team!

12,648 posted on 04/14/2007 12:36:12 PM PDT by marron
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To: betty boop
FUN is composed of two parts.. 1) faith .. 2) reason..

Absent either of these whatever "it" is gets too serious..
And by being too serious also hubris..

12,655 posted on 04/14/2007 1:16:34 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: betty boop; marron; hosepipe; Kolokotronis; kosta50
LOLOL! I do think we ought to form a team as marron suggests.

I'm glad you raised Justin Martyr, his description of his studies in philosophy are quite revealing, as is his manner of conversion.

Personally, I do not see Paul as an enemy of Greek philosophy per se - but rather an enemy of Greek idolatry.

Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, [Ye] men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. - Acts 17:22-28

The problem with many Christians appreciating the Greek philosophers, IMHO, is that myths are the language of philosophy. And over the course of time, sadly, characters of the myths become more real or relevant to some than the "moral of the story."

Parables are like tiny "myths" which Christ spoke to hide Truth in plain sight. The characters were not, however, central to Christ's parables:

And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. - Matt 13:10-13

I find the whole business rather strange because most of us are able to read Shakespeare and find a theme without being "taken in" by the characters. Conversely, people flock to their favorite television programs - suspending reality so completely - that they sometimes seem to forget what they are viewing is not real.

At any rate, no matter how one views the importance of the Greek philosophers, I am very sure that everything is unfolding according to God's will.

12,674 posted on 04/14/2007 8:24:08 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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