Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Forest Keeper; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus; HarleyD; Quix; ...
First, thank you on your kind words. Likewise. We all can and do learn from each other.

if a baby gets baptized in a Catholic Church and then dies on the way home, the presumption is that he was saved and goes to Heaven

No, it is a certainty because the Child was brought into the Body of Christ, and has committed no sin. A child who has not been baptized is presumed saved by the Orthodox (and most Catholics I believe).

If that same child grew up and never went to Church, then the presumption would be that he is doomed for not having taken of the sacraments

We don't know that. But chances are that such a person has rejected God and the Church would be concerned about his spiritual wellbeing.

But we do know that we can lose our grace the same way Adam and Eve lost theirs: by willful rejection of God. By Baptism, we are restored in grace. By rejecting it we are doomed. God's grace is lovingly offered to all, for God is not partial (cf Rom 2:11), but we are not shackled by it.

Therefore, in Catholicism salvation can be either held or lost. If lost, once held, it can be recovered

Yes, we can always repent; until our last breath. repentance means bearing fruit (cf Mat 3:8). Christ came to call sinners to repentance (cf Luk 5:32) and as long as we are sinners we are in need of repentance. repentance is for the forgiveness of sins and restoration of grace. It is our willingness to cooperate with the will of God.

We do not "hold" salvation in our hands. Go does. Being under grace means that we are cooperating with God's will, making our salvation more likely. The salvation is based on God's judgment, for either we will be the sheep or the goats by His decision, not ours.

But we do know that His decision will be based on what we have done, the life we chose. Those in "invincible ignorance" (people who without their own fault don't know Christ) as the Catholics call it are outside of our concern, for God will deal with them in a merciful and just way.

We, as Christians, fall under a different set of rules, and we know that our choice is either to stay on the narrow path, making corrections, or to fall from grace by our own choice.

12,514 posted on 04/13/2007 8:06:45 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12479 | View Replies ]


To: kosta50; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus; HarleyD; Quix; 1000 silverlings; ..
But we do know that we can lose our grace the same way Adam and Eve lost theirs: by willful rejection of God. By Baptism, we are restored in grace. By rejecting it we are doomed. God's grace is lovingly offered to all, for God is not partial (cf Rom 2:11), but we are not shackled by it.

I had to think a long time about this one because frankly, I struggle with categories like "one-time-only" rules that apply to only Adam and Eve. :) I still don't claim that I've got it, but here's my best shot:

We all say that Adam and Eve "fell from grace" because of sin. And, you said that we fall in the same way. Now, did Adam and Eve actually fall from a Saving grace, as Paul describes? Did Adam and Eve NEED saving when they were formed? It wouldn't seem so. Therefore, perhaps we are talking about two totally different kinds of graces. That would nullify any comparison between one of us today "losing" his salvation, and Adam.

We can ask: "did Adam 'lose' his salvation when he sinned"? That's a tough one for me. My inclination is to say "no", since he wasn't "saved" due to lack of need at the time. This is well above my pay-grade, but perhaps this is one instance where it can be useful to distinguish between salvation and justification. I think it would make sense to me to say that Adam lost his justification when he sinned, but not his salvation. I would also say that is one of the "one-time-only" rules. :) Now, before I dig my pit any deeper, I would love to hear any comments on these issues. :)

Yes, we can always repent; until our last breath. repentance means bearing fruit (cf Mat 3:8).

It's a subtle distinction, but I don't think that's what the verse says:

Matt 3:8 : Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. NIV

Matt 3:8 : Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: KJV

To me these both say that fruit is consistent with repentance, but not that works MEAN repentance. I see repentance as having to do with a change of heart, rather than the doing of works.

The salvation is based on God's judgment, for either we will be the sheep or the goats by His decision, not ours.

Ah, on this we do surely agree. :)

[continuing:] But we do know that His decision will be based on what we have done, the life we chose.

Well, it was fun while it lasted. :) What do you mean by "based"? You really mean "determined" don't you? Has God favored some who have done comparatively little, and damned some who have done comparatively much? Since God isn't partial, aren't we really talking about a SUBJECTIVE point system here? IOW, the answer I would expect is that salvation IS based on a point system, but the scale is different for everybody based on the individual circumstances in that person's life.

Those in "invincible ignorance" (people who without their own fault don't know Christ) as the Catholics call it are outside of our concern, for God will deal with them in a merciful and just way.

"Outside of our concern"? Kosta, I thought you cared. (sniff) :) Seriously though, isn't it our duty to care about all those we believe do not know Christ? Isn't it our duty, and honor, really, to minister to them and give them the Good News? We believe this is an absolute calling, indeed a COMMAND, by God to all believers.

In addition, (Alex or Joe can pick me up), but I don't think the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance ONLY applies to those who do not know Christ. My understanding is that it generally applies to those with beliefs outside those of the Roman Catholic Church. I think that the doctrine does apply to Christians who are not of an Apostolic faith (as opposed to only lost people).

13,209 posted on 04/21/2007 8:21:53 AM PDT by Forest Keeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12514 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson