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Well, I would say that Paul didn't know everything that we THINK about Christianity today (including Protestants). However, if I did not have assurance and was offered a last-second chance to trade my faith for Paul's before facing Judgment, I would do it. :)

Why? I thought you were "once saved, always saved"... How can you "just barely be saved"? Either you are or you aren't, in your scheme.

If so, then because the Trinity is such a core and basic concept for us, I can't believe Paul didn't essentially get it. For example, Paul mentions them as all being distinct:

Yes, for US it is core. For the Apostles and Paul, I do not believe that the Trinity was a core concern. This developed only later as the Church meditated on what was given. IF Paul and the Apostles were clear on things concerning the Trinity, there wouldn't have been so many heresies on the subject - heresies that continued for 500 years. Note, there was no heresies on the Eucharist or Apostolic succession because "everyone" knew about it and was taught it. The Trinity, in my opinion, was not taught in the fullness of detail that we have today - or even 325 AD. Thus, Nicea to Chalcedon concentrated so heavily on WHO Jesus Christ was and what His relationship was to the Father and the Spirit.

I have a very hard time believing that there are men today who understand God better than Paul did. Paul's mentor was Jesus Himself, one on one.

You seem to forget that God is quite capable of acting even TODAY in our world. As such, God can enlighten men in the history of the Church. God CONTINUES to gradually reveal more about Himself through the one-time "tradition" given by Christ to the Apostles. Paul HIMSELF shows a development of thought on various subjects, to include the time of the second coming of Christ. We note in his writings that his ideas on justification also develop over time. Paul is no different than any other person who has been given revelation from God. It is not ALL INCLUSIVE. Apparently, Paul, like everyone else, learns about God through the same school that everyone else learns - through the school of obedience and humility and prayer. Paul, like everyone else, had to THINK and REFLECT on God's Word.

Did Jesus keep secrets from Paul, etc.? I doubt it.

Did Jesus keep secrets from Mary? Yet, the Scriptures tell us that Mary ALSO contemplated what happened to her in her heart - reflecting on these matters for 30 years to the cross. Again, I do not believe that God has revealed Himself fully to ANYONE. His ways are to lead man to reflect on Him through our lives. It is not God's intent to merely write the Catechism or whatever into our logical brains. He desires we experience Him in life - DAILY. Thus, our ideas of God develop as we mature in Christ.

But surely you knew that, if you say you are in Christ...

Besides you appear to be freely admitting here that the later Church ADDED to what even the Apostles taught and understood. OOPS! :) So much for "always and everywhere", not to mention the specific scriptural prohibition against this.

I am saying our UNDERSTANDING increases. If I give you a math book at the beginning of a college semester of calculus, do you understand it all on day one??? Again, I thought you were beyond such mindless mantras repeated by other of my separated brothers...

And, Protestants do not see Mary as only an incubator. We honor her for her great faith and devotion to God.

I apologize, but after what I have read on Free Republic over the last few years, I find that as BS. You do not honor her one bit. She has been dishonored continuously here. IF Jesus really IS fully human, I can imagine what He must think about all these Protestants who "honor" her with their incessant attacks that strive to make her as just another person, rather than one who has been blessed above all other women.

If I'd know any better, I'd think some Protestants consider her as merely a utilitarian tool that God HAD to use to save man while following the "script"...

Regards

FK: "... However, if I did not have assurance and was offered a last-second chance to trade my faith for Paul's before facing Judgment, I would do it. :)

Why? I thought you were "once saved, always saved"... How can you "just barely be saved"? Either you are or you aren't, in your scheme.

I said IF I did not have assurance (i.e. if I was some other type of Christian) I would trade. The reality is that I do have assurance so I would not trade with anyone. At the same time I have a firm belief that Paul's faith was stronger than mine is now, so I want to be like Paul.

IF Paul and the Apostles were clear on things concerning the Trinity, there wouldn't have been so many heresies on the subject - heresies that continued for 500 years.

But you know better than I that there were plenty of heresies on things even more basic (and core) than the Trinity, such as Christ's identity. There are heresies about everything.

Note, there was no heresies on the Eucharist or Apostolic succession because "everyone" knew about it and was taught it.

That is unknowable. Are you telling me that screwups like the Corinthians got tons of things wrong, but on these issues they got it exactly right? You just can't know that, especially given the specious coverage of them in scripture. The argument that "everyone" knew just doesn't wash. The Bible spends plenty of ink on the identity of Christ, and none, or next to none on the critical issues you raise. That makes no sense. What, everyone understood the meaning of the Eucharist and Apostolic succession, but not everyone understood who Christ was? That is impossible.

What? I would expect that from the Episcopalian leadership, not from a Roman Catholic. :) (The HS is doing a new thing, etc.) Whatever happened to always and everywhere believed?

Paul is no different than any other person who has been given revelation from God. It is not ALL INCLUSIVE.

I agree with you that Paul, like everyone else, participated in sanctification and grew in faith even after his ministry began. However, I don't see how this addresses whether men today have a greater understanding than did Paul. I mean, if there was a celebrity "Jeopardy", and every category was "God", who would you bet on from recent times to beat Paul? :)

FK: "Did Jesus keep secrets from Paul, etc.? I doubt it."

Did Jesus keep secrets from Mary?

Yes, He absolutely did! Her faith in Him as God was not realized at least until Christ was 12. We know that. Of course, this also forces me to amend my statement, since I just agreed that Paul continued growing in faith. Our faith is given to us on God's time table, and it is also grown on God's time table.

Again, I do not believe that God has revealed Himself fully to ANYONE.

I agree.

Well, it must be pretty mindless, since I don't even know which mantra you are talking about. :) If the Bible is like a calculus book that nobody understands at the beginning, then it doesn't square with your holding that each new council or papal decree is something that has always and everywhere been believed. Those are opposite ideas.

FK: "And, Protestants do not see Mary as only an incubator. We honor her for her great faith and devotion to God."

... but after what I have read on Free Republic over the last few years, I find that as BS. You do not honor her one bit. She has been dishonored continuously here. IF Jesus really IS fully human, I can imagine what He must think about all these Protestants who "honor" her with their incessant attacks that strive to make her as just another person, rather than one who has been blessed above all other women.

What? We don't honor her as you do, but none of the Protestants here I call friends has anything against Mary. We would all say that Mary was uniquely blessed above all other women. We also honor her humanity. Perhaps our expression of that is what you take to be an attack. I have never seen anything that I have perceived to be an "attack" against Mary by any Protestant on FR. That's not to say there haven't been any, I don't know. In any event, you know who my buddies are. NONE of us ever thinks anything negative when we think about Mary. TRULY. :)