Seriously: Is there any sense in which the word "free" is rightly attributed to human beings. If the answer is yes, can you sort of develop it a little, please?
As I have or should have said to you before, I think the whole matter is unthinkable. We have Jeremiah saying that God does not willingly afflict the children of men -- with the suggestion that God does stuff unwillingly. We have 1 Tim 2:3-4 and the apparent problem of God's desire being frustrated. To me that's a poser.
How can we give the sovereignty of God its proper place in any account without ending up sounding a lot like Muslims - "(shrug) It is written, inscrutable but written: some are damned, some are saved, what can you do but what it is written that you shall do, what can you suffer but what it is written you shall suffer ....)
Clearly we have different ethical concepts from those of Islam, and we think that Jesus is the perfect and efficacious revelation of God, while they think the Mohammed provided the perfect revelation, while being himself one heck of a guy, but not divine. But they seem to despise freedom, while in every other FR forum but the religious one Freedom is a value.
I'm serious here. Is this at all suggestive of anything that might be important or should I just go back to sleep?
Seriously: Is there any sense in which the word "free" is rightly attributed to human beings. If the answer is yes, can you sort of develop it a little, please? Well, in reading your whole post, I may not totally understand where you are coming from, so if the following is unresponsive, it's not intentional. :)
All I'm really saying is that the word "free" is a relative term. The only one Who is totally free in all things is God Himself. God is the only one in control of all things. Now, this being said, we certainly do experience and do have varying levels of freedom in our lives. Before salvation, we are relatively free to sin, but we are not free to do good in God's eyes. However, God remains in control, and if a particular lost person wishes to commit a particular sin, and it goes against God's plan, then He prevents the sin. Pharaoh wanted to continue sinning by keeping the Israelites in bondage. At the appointed time, God prevented that sin from continuing.
Now, once we are saved, then we are also relatively free to do good in God's eyes. And, the good that we do is actually God working through us, so He is fully in control of that. We do experience freedom of choice, but God is ultimately in control of all. I don't "feel" any less free than you do, and I certainly don't consider myself a puppet. I am just fine with the idea that God allows some variables. However, I can't begin to quantify to what extent. IOW, I don't know whether it is part of God's plan whether I put my left or right shoe on first. I am content no matter the answer.
How can we give the sovereignty of God its proper place in any account without ending up sounding a lot like Muslims - "(shrug) It is written, inscrutable but written: some are damned, some are saved, what can you do but what it is written that you shall do, what can you suffer but what it is written you shall suffer ....)
I honestly don't know if Islam has any commonality with my views on God's sovereignty. But even if it did, that would not automatically say to me that I'm wrong. I mean, somewhere in Islam it must say to love one's neighbor. So are we wrong because Islam says that? Of course not. Certainly, Islam is not a Godly faith. However, it does not mean that we simply believe the opposite on all points.
But [Muslims] seem to despise freedom, while in every other FR forum but the religious one Freedom is a value.
Yes, but they despise freedom on almost every level. They do not experience freedom in any way that we do. They have almost no relative freedom. Here, we are basically just talking about the experience of the person during life. Our God wants that experience to be much better and joyful for us than they believe their God wants for them. Their loss.
Overall, I see freedom as being about power and control. I think the human instinct is to want as much of that as we can get. I see the Christian faith as being about the willing and loving surrender of perceived power and control over to God. When you and I each do that for real, the effect is the same, it is good and pleasing to God. That is, even though we may disagree about what's going on behind the scenes. :)
