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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; annalex; HarleyD; Quix; kawaii; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg
Kosta, that's nothing compared to "Most Holy Theotokos save us!" ... But as I have said before, Marian devotion simply isn't for Protestants

The Church needs to regulate it. Leaving it up to individual devotees leads to worship-like behavior. The main reason the Divine Liturgy was regulated was the fact that everybody was adding and composing their own set of prayers. Some were kneeling, some were standing, etc.

As you know, the Church found it necessary to prohibit kneeling on Sundays and especially 40 days after the Pentecost, and institutded fixed prayers for the Divine Liturgy. As you know, that is being observed as much as women being covered in church (at least in America).

The people in my church who prostrate for the Theotokos (because they feel they "need" to give her a more than 'cursory' [?] sign of the cross) do not prostrate when the Holy Trinity is invoked. Apparently they feel the Theotokos 'deserves' more than the Holy Trinity! It's absurd! It's blasphemous, and idolatrous!

We tend to excuse such idolatry as "personal devotion." But people are copycats. Others are nubies and do what they see others do. The third and largest group is ignorant of the scripture and history and figure that if the priest doesn't mention something to the contrary it's okay!

The problem is — the priest is facing the altar and never sees what the congregation does! And even if they see it, they may not say anything (because we always want more parishoners, not fewer).

I never did accept or condone asking the Theotokos to save us. I never believed she can save us. I never believed she wants us to believe that she can save us.

Your refrence to the "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" is from the Supplicatory Canon to the Most holy Theotokos and Akathist Canon which seem, to put it midly, idolatorus. (These are not commonly recited prayers, but used during Great Lent when most people are not present). They are not liturgical. The Divine Liturgy makes no such statement.

It's one thing to love her, honor her, even magnify her. It's an altogether another thing to pray to her to save us, to infer that she has the opower to cleanse us of our sins, to bow to her (as some people do in my church), or to say Glory to thee (+Basil's Divine Liturgy).

There is no theological or biblical evidence that saints do pray for us; it is an assumption (even the Church will tell you) that they would, for as we pray for others and all, so would they because we consider them to be (spiritually) alive.

To me, Marian devotion can be summarized with one word: deepest gratitude. Everything else is idolatry.

12,162 posted on 03/31/2007 7:23:52 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; HarleyD; wmfights; Quix; 1000 silverlings; fortheDeclaration; Gamecock; ...
The people in my church who prostrate for the Theotokos (because they feel they "need" to give her a more than 'cursory' [?] sign of the cross) do not prostrate when the Holy Trinity is invoked. Apparently they feel the Theotokos 'deserves' more than the Holy Trinity! It's absurd! It's blasphemous, and idolatrous!

Finally, some relief from the EO's splashing along the banks of the Tiber. I can AMEN! to just about your entire post.

(Now don't go and retract any of it just because a Protestant high-fived you. After some of these posts, it's really a welcome pleasure to read that the EO actually HAS some disagreement with the RCC.)

The problem is — the priest is facing the altar

That is a problem. The Reformation solved that problem by having the pastor face his congregation, further stressing that the word of God was foremost in our worship, and that Christ was not hanging on a wall, but in every heart of every congregant in the church.

12,163 posted on 03/31/2007 10:32:49 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: kosta50

Am blessed to read your more Biblical sanity on the topic in this post.

Thanks much.


12,166 posted on 03/31/2007 6:16:13 PM PDT by Quix (AN AUTHENTIC RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST AND SPIRITUAL WARFARE PREVENTS ET ABDUCTIONS, STOPS SAME)
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To: kosta50
I never did accept or condone asking the Theotokos to save us. I never believed she can save us. I never believed she wants us to believe that she can save us.

Amen. 1Tim.2:5.

12,176 posted on 04/02/2007 4:48:51 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (For what saith the scripture? (Rom.4:3))
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To: kosta50
The people in my church who prostrate for the Theotokos (because they feel they "need" to give her a more than 'cursory' [?] sign of the cross) do not prostrate when the Holy Trinity is invoked. Apparently they feel the Theotokos 'deserves' more than the Holy Trinity! It's absurd! It's blasphemous, and idolatrous!

I really appreciate the honest and frank criticism, Kosta. Excellent post.

12,377 posted on 04/11/2007 2:16:41 PM PDT by Forest Keeper
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