Not at all. If he falls short, he is not of the elect, even though he is called. If he is among the elect, he will do what St. Peter tells him, repent, grow in virtues, remain elect, and sin no more.
we both know immediately that interpretation is required, since neither of us condones cannibalism
There is no cannibalism. Christ is present in the Eucharist and tells us to eat it, which is his real body. He also tells us that this is food to profit our spirit rather than out flesh (John 6:64), which alone would discount any cannibalistic fantasies. No interpretation is required, and none is contemplated in this passage by my Church.
The flesh counts for nothing.
This is not interpretation, this is mistranslation, designed to tell you lies about the gospel.
One of our differences is in seeing God as a true leader, or as just a consultant
A true leader leads free men who know what they are doing as they follow. What you see is a slave runner.
10 For wisdom came forth from God: for praise shall be with the wisdom of God, and shall abound in a faithful mouth, and the sovereign Lord will give praise unto it. 11 Say not: It is through God, that she is not with me: for do not thou the things that he hateth. 12 Say not: He hath caused me to err: for he hath no need of wicked men. 13 The Lord hateth all abomination of error, and they that fear him shall not love it. 14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. 15 He added his commandments and precepts. 16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee. 17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt. 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth all the work of man.(Ecclesiasticus 15)
FK: "Well, in that case, you cannot believe there is even a such thing as the "elect". If any of the elect ultimately fall short, then the concept is destroyed."
Alex: "Not at all. If he falls short, he is not of the elect, even though he is called. If he is among the elect, he will do what St. Peter tells him, repent, grow in virtues, remain elect, and sin no more." (emphasis added)
You make my point for me. If it is up to a person to REMAIN elect, then the Biblical concept is moot. It is a sham. Just say that men elect themselves and be done with it. :) One of my favorite movies is "The Sting". You have God past-posting!!! And I'm not even kidding. :)
FK: "The flesh counts for nothing."
This is not interpretation, this is mistranslation, designed to tell you lies about the gospel.
You're right, this is not interpretation. These are actual words from John 6. What is the mistranslation?
A true leader leads free men who know what they are doing as they follow. What you see is a slave runner.
Amen! Yes, God is a runner of slaves to righteousness. For example:
1 Cor 7:21-23 : 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you — although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave . 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
It does not appear that Christ is respecting men here. What about this:
Rom 6:17-18 : 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Paul readily says that he is putting this in "human terms". That's the way we use it here.
(Ecclesiasticus 15) .....
Thanks for posting from the Deuts. :) From the flow of the passage, this certainly seems like a works-based salvation model. I.e. "16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, ..." How do you analyze them, as against the OT or the NT? I ask because we have been dealing with the NT.