To: kosta50; Forest Keeper; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
"It makes a difference if God makes our decisions or if we make our decisions according to His plan. In the former, we are robots; in the latter He knew from all eternity what our decisions would be. The latter makes us free and yet God's plan is certain and sovereign. In the former, it's God pulling the strings and we are just dummies."
If God's plan is "certain and sovereign" then the details are just as "certain and sovereign". Otherwise, you have "open theism" where God just sits there amazed at how things are turning out and "wow" it is similar to what He planned. The question still remains, if you don't know, or are not sure, that all things are planned and executed according to God's sovereign plan, and you make decisions based on your genes, heritage, education, experience, accidents etc., what difference does it make to you? Don't you still think or act on the basis that you are making decisions based on your free will or "free will" as informed by and dictated by all of life's contingencies? The only people who had "free will" were Adam and Eve; every one else's decisions were based on the negative influences of sin, from their parents to the fallen and cursed creation. Adam and Eve's education and experience, up until the time of the fall, came from their relationship with the Creator and His perfect creation. Every one after the fall, including Adam and Eve, learned from sin and the consequences of sin.
"The former paradigm breaks down because love is lacking."
Where is love lacking? God provided the satisfaction for sin before the creation. He chose those He wanted to spend eternity with and brings things about to make sure they are with Him. (Rom. 8:28-33) "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?"
In His sovereignty, He chose some vessels for honor and some for dishonor, however, those chosen for dishonor will never say His election is unjust because they see themselves as autonomous from Him and gods in their own right, able to make eternal decisions without His input, which they do to their own destruction. They get what they want, separation from God.
The mystery is how God can plan and execute down to the minutest detail (look at the lilies of the field) and yet create man, such, that his decisions are seemingly autonomous. That's why when we evangelize we ask for a response, because we don't know, and are just "fishers of men".
To: blue-duncan
Otherwise, you have "open theism" where God just sits there amazed at how things are turning out and "wow" it is similar to what He planned. LOL. God at the mercy of coincidence.
The only people who had "free will" were Adam and Eve
Yep. And look where that got them, which is precisely what their actions are supposed to teach us. Scripture is God's history book, informing us of who we are, how we got to where we are, how we should proceed from here, and what lies ahead for us.
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you." -- John 15:16
"Known to God from eternity are all His works." -- Acts 15:18
"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13
10,910 posted on
02/20/2007 11:06:14 AM PST by
Dr. Eckleburg
("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
To: blue-duncan; Forest Keeper; jo kus; Kolokotronis; wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
If God's plan is "certain and sovereign" then the details are just as "certain and sovereign" What details are you talking about? Did I ever doubt any details? I simply stated that God foreknows our decisions (because God exists outside of time), without forcing us to make them.
Somehow you feel that our decisions affect, or even "diminish" His plan! Our free will affects us, and not God.
Otherwise, you have "open theism" where God just sits there amazed at how things are turning out and "wow" it is similar to what He planned,/I>
Open theism? I am Eastern Orthodox. Orthodoxy and 'open theism" or Armenianism have nothing in common; just as we have nothing in common with the Reformed variety. There is no "open theism" in Orthodoxy.
"I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add fifteen years to your life." [Isa 38:5] Seems pretty clear to me that God switched to Plan B.
The only people who had "free will" were Adam and Eve; every one else's decisions were based on the negative influences of sin, from their parents to the fallen and cursed creation
And they picked evil although they were not 'slaves' to it. There are two possibliities: God made them pick evil, or God knew and allowed it. But how was God affected by this? Did God lack something because His creation decided to shoot itself in the foot? No! Adam and Eve and all subsequent generations lost something.
Our free will affects us, BD, not God. We have choices.
Where is love lacking?,/i>
Robots don't love, BD, I hate to break it to do. Love is not the same as blind obedience.
He chose those He wanted to spend eternity with and brings things about to make sure they are with Him. (Rom. 8:28-33)
That is almost exlcusively +Paul's idea. In fact, I don't think anyone but +Paul (assuming Acts are also his distation, or closely influenced by him) uses the term "predestinated" or "predestination."
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
Um, it is not the image but the likeness of God that we lost. We are created in His image; it's just that after the fall we are not like Him any more.
They get what they want, separation from God
That makes no sense, BD, if they don't have free will. How can you want anything if that which you want is God working through you?
10,920 posted on
02/20/2007 9:10:09 PM PST by
kosta50
(Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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