Replies

"The elect do not add works to their salvation and are saved by the grace of God alone. So therefore, the hypothetical is something that would not happen."

My point exactly, B.

"In "my system" which frankly, I'm getting a little tired of it being called for "my system" is held by Reformed Christians everywhere."

My apologies.

"So, it is not "my system" any more than Orthodoxy is "your system"."

But Orthodoxy is, among other things, a theological system. That's what I meant by the term system. Truthfully, I meant no offense by it. When I mean to be offensive I am much more obvious, B.

"Anyway, it is a mischaracterization of what I have already explained concerning Reformed theology. God knew that man would rebel. He allowed the rebellion. He did not force the rebellion. He gave free will to Adam and Eve. They chose, freely, to sin. Knowing this from all eternity God also knew that all of Adam and Eve's proginy would refuse to come to Him. All of them. Romans 3 is clear. None seeks God. So, he chose, because He is GOD and can do that, to choose many to salvation. The rest, He allowed to exist and go THEIR OWN WAY - not because He didn't choose them but because of their own choice. God does not OWE mercy. Yet, in His design of things He allows the ungodly to exist to teach us about sin, wrath, holiness, and mercy."

But this is more, in part, like +John Chrysostomos' foreknowledge than predestination, if I am reading you right. Where your explanation falls, however, is in the way you have explained the election part and couple that with the verses from +John's gospel. For example, you write: "Yet, in His design of things He allows the ungodly to exist to teach us about sin, wrath, holiness, and mercy." To what end, B? If the elect are already in and aren't getting out, what's the point of the lesson?

As for the progeny of Adam & Eve refusing to come to God, well yes, He foresaw that. He also foresaw that the reason for that refusal was that because of sin people couldn't conform themselves to His likeness and were in bondage to death. Now God doesn't "owe" anyone anything. We don't make deals with God, bargain with Him any more than Reformed Protestants do. We do believe that God's grace falls equally on all of us because we are told that God loves His creation. All of us have an equal opportunity to become like God and thus fulfill our created purpose. Does God have foreknowledge of who will become like Him and who won't. Well, our language is necesarily limited when speaking of the One Who creates existence, Who doesn't "exist", except through the Incarnation, in any way we comprehend, but to the extent we can know the mind of God, yes, He knew. But we can't and don't have that foreknowledge. It is for that reason that we can say that God knows who is in His hands for keeps, or will be in His hand for keeps. But that doesn't mean that any human is predestined to attain theosis.

I do think that in part you are right about God allowing evil people to exist as an object lesson. I also believe that their continued existence is an example to us of God's "respect" for free will. God has given us, in the Incarnation, everything we need for theosis, He has lead the horse to the water, but He won't force us to drink. In many ways the same can be said about natural disasters. While it is clear that God has caused some as a sort of didactic "punishment" to get rid of overwhelming sin, it is also clear that such disasters are also the result of the distortions in creation caused by our sins, the accumulated burden of sin.

"Your becoming Christ-like, in Orthodoxy, requires that YOU do certain acts. YOU adopt certain attitudes."

Yes, we are taught that in order to become like God we need to have a metanoia, to accomplish which God has given us freely all the grace we need and that is found within The Church. What The Church does is take a spiritually sick person and nurse him/her to a point where he/she is freely willing to respond to God's grace and be healed of their spiritual sickness. That's what we believe the purpose of The Church and the scriptures is.

"Scripture indicates that it was His sacrifice alone that saved us."

Indeed it does. So does The Church. It restored a potential which was lost in The Fall. Theosis is becoming like God, B. Before the Incarnation we belonged to death, a state we put ourselves in. Scripture says none seek after God. Left to our own devices, that's likely true. But despite what the NT says, the OT is filled with examples of the Righteous. Christ freed them from the bonds of death when He descended to the place of the dead. Similarly, by God's grace the baptized Christian likewise seeks God. We see it everyday. Because, as +Paul wrote, "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." The "hope", B, not the dead on certainty of becoming like God.

"Without the blood-sacrifice of Christ Jesus, our sins were not atoned for and our salvation was not obtained. It was not blood-lust. It was God's justice and mercy in action. If you don't like it, your argument is against Scripture."

This atonement theory is distinctly Western as you have expressed it. Indeed Christ's sacrifice reconciled man to God, but not because God demanded a sacrifice to Himself. Christ's death reconciled us to God because it freed us from our self created bondage to death caused by our sins. We became free to become what God created us for, to be in the image and likeness of Himself. The "ransom" was paid to "death", not to God and death got cheated. "Hell took a body and found God!". "Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!"

I never should have made that crack about the West lecturing Eastern Christianity about Mohammedanism, though I truly believe it. It necessarily leads to a foreign policy discussion which is way off point here and I shouldn't have gotten into it. I am sorry. I will only say this. I have never in any substantial and extended way personally found myself in a state of dhimmitude. I have dealt with Mohammedans in the context of their own religious cultures. I have encountered and dealt with in various places in the Mohammedan world people we would consider today (and then for that matter) a pretty bad bunch. Because of that "stuff", its best that I don't go to certain places in the Mohammedan (and communist too) world. But I have never personally, unlike a number of Eastern Christians on FR, ever had my parish church burned or been driven from my home nor have I, save in one place, been forced to worship in secret. Finally, you write,

"But, what you do not know about American culture is a lot.
"

Gee, I had a grandmother whose family came to Massachusetts in 1623, two of my sisters are members of the DAR and I qualify for membership in the SAR (I've had the forms for admission for years; I just never got around to filling them out). I have an ancestress who was tried three times for witchcraft in 17th century Massachusetts and beat the rap all three times. Another was the first published poet in the English New World (17th century) and, I believe the first published poetess in the English language. I have two others who were "saved" after one of Jonathan Edwards' sermons. I have another who was scalped in the first Indian war and another who was carried off to Quebec by the Indians. Others who fought at Louisburg and still others whose homestead was burned flat by the Indians three times during the French and Indian wars. Does that count? :)

Where your explanation falls, however, is in the way you have explained the election part and couple that with the verses from +John's gospel. For example, you write: "Yet, in His design of things He allows the ungodly to exist to teach us about sin, wrath, holiness, and mercy." To what end, B? If the elect are already in and aren't getting out, what's the point of the lesson?

Kolo,I think what I am sensing in you is that you fear because we believe is salvation by grace through faith alone that there is no place for works whatsoever. That you think that since the elect are saved and can't be lost, then they will sit back on their laurels and wait for their death or the return of Christ. That nothing really matters in Scripture. Here though, Kolo, your fears are wrong.

As a Christian for some 30 years, I have been a member of several churches. I have been a member of Reformed churches and Arminian churches. The Arminians were closer to what you are referring to than the Reformed ever were. The Arminians were all about "Get them down that aisle, have them say the prayer, and get them saved. Even if you have to go down to one of them and tell them 'it's time', getting them down that aisle is the only thing that is important." I do not exagerate with that statement. It was done. The people of the church were by and large spiritual babes who all had the one focus, getting someone to say the sinner's prayer (little thought being given to whether or not the pray-er actually believed what he/she was saying).

The Reformed churches, on the other hand, have been very studious of God's Word. I would submit that this is for 3 reasons.

1)Getting us saved is only one small part of the equation that God elected us for. Salvation is only part of the great commmission. Discipleship is a key part of what God planned for us from before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matthew 28:19 (NASB)"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It was God's plan for us to do this. To make disciples you must delve into God's Word- else, it is your word alone which is worth no more than any other person's word.

2)We study Scripture for our own edification. Kolo, I can not tell you how much meditating upon the grace of God through divine election blesses my soul. Rather than creating pride in me, it creates humility and love for my Lord. He saved ME! He drew ME! And, He has a plan for ME! This is the God of the Universe we are talking about, and that He would reach out to me, a sinner, and send His Son to die for me is more than my heart can fully comprehend in all of its greatness. As a result of the LOVE that Christ gives me for Him, I want to know all that I can about Him and want to know about how I may please Him. He is my God. He is my Savior. He revealed Himself to me in His Word. Would I not be an ungrateful twit if I decided 'oh, Gee, I've got the fire insurance now. Thanks God, I'll just be living my life the way I want now. See ya in heaven.' Such are not the thoughts of an elect person. That person has a heart-felt genuine desire for knowing Jesus more and wants to please Him.

Finally, why do we study? Because the Word of God is key in drawing others to Him. Would they come if we didn't preach/teach them? If we were silent, the rocks would cry out. But what a blessing to be a part of God's drawing others to Himself. We study to have a ready answer for the hope within us in order that others may know the same God that we know. Kolo, I don't know how many are elect. As Spurgeon once said, God doesn't paint a yellow stripe down the center of each elect person's body to distinguish them from the lost. Rather, than even worry about this aspect which only God can know, I am like my Missionary professor who was a 5 point Calvinist. Rather than quelling a missionary zeal in the way that we know that salvation is already a done deal for the elect, we preach and teach the gospel with a zeal KNOWING with assurance that there will be people who will respond. In the Orthodox system, there is no such assurance. But, in the Calvinist system we KNOW that God elected and will draw many. And, therefore we labor knowing that our labor will not be in vain.

In the end, it is not about us. It isn't about well, I'm saved now so I don't have to do anything. Would you still be saved if you took that tact? Yes you would. But Christ saved us in order to become His workmen. We work, we study Scripture, we grow more Christ-like because it is what He designed us for. And we are blessed indeed.