'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[1000 silverlings]

we don't always interpret it exactly as other Christians do.

The mormons say the same thing. They believe that the scriptures are true, in that they are translated or interpreted "correctly." You run the risk of being like the pharisees, who were like today's lawyers, and instead of teaching the plain truth, in the spirit of the law, instead looked for every loophole they could, in order to go around the law.

You must become as little children, Christ said, and that means it is so simple that even a child will comprehend it. Of course that is the "milk and honey", if you want to eat quail, you must trust in the Lord to provide it and no complaining.

[blue-duncan]

"The idea that Satan is a fallen angel is foreign to Pharisaical Judaism."

You have said this many times on this thread. Please explain this exchange between Jesus and a scribe.

Mar 3:22-24, "And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand."

[Dr. Eckleburg]

For us to be made righteous, God expects us to 'do' more than just believe.

As Wmfights noted, this is where we part company.

Men are "made righteous" by only ONE THING -- by the perfect, predestined, merciful and miraculous death and resurrection of Jesus Christ who paid in full one time for all the sins of God's elect.

" [we]"...are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood... He did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." -- Romans 3:25,26

And how do we know that Christ paid for our sins? By our faith. If we believe, we have been redeemed. And that is because the only way a fallen creature can have faith and do good works is by the free gift of God's grace alone.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10

If our fruit is good, we have been born from a good tree.

"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." -- Matthew 7:17-18

And who makes one man fruitful and another man not?

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7

Saved by grace alone.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Hey we did have tradition! Plus we had to memorize it. Our other tradition was to sit there and pay attention, lol

LOL. As my husband says, learning equals curiousity and retention.

I've got the first part down pretty well. It's that second part that sometimes has me...

...oh, never mind. I forget.

[1000 silverlings]

For us to be made righteous, God expects us to 'do' more than just believe.

the whole teaching of the OT and up to Christ and his teachings is that the law could never make anyone righteous, that it had the opposite effect. Only God can clothe one in righteousness. We do indeed have a different gospel.

[1000 silverlings]

What were we talking about? lol

[blue-duncan]

"For us to be made righteous, God expects us to 'do' more than just believe."

Righteous is a forensic term. You have defined grace as God's justice, another forensic term. It is God's mercy in Christ that His justice is satisfied and we are judged righteous before Him. You don't work to be innocent of a crime, either you are or you are not. You don't work to be righteous, either you are or you are not.

Tts 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

[1000 silverlings]

Romans 3:28

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

[Blogger]

Kolo, With all due respect (and no disrespect is meant here), John Chrysostom 1)was a human being 2)is not Scripture and; 3)is not here to defend his comments.

You are here, and we are interested in speaking with YOU on this most important subject: The Perseverance of the Saints.

Now, the contention on the table is that no man can pluck us out of Christ's hand but we ourselves can do so after we have been truly saved. To that, I would submit that you consider the following.

1st, the context. Yes, that pesky word that we always have to keep coming back to. The verse appears in the midst of several verses on the subject which negate the possibility of ever fully falling away from Christ if one is one of his sheep.

First, there was a parable about a shepherd, which Christ then goes forward and proclaims that HE is that shepherd. But what did the parable say? Verses 4 & 5 of John 10 say: "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. " So here, we have, posited by Christ Himself, that those who are His sheep WILL FOLLOW HIM and WILL NOT follow another.

But Christ goes even further than this. He makes the welfare of the sheep not dependent on the sheep at all, but upon Himself - the Good shepherd (and contrasts those that would allow the sheep to be scattered with himself in the process). Christ says: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Next, we see some of the Jews disputing what He said. "...many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? " And they grumbled. But what did Jesus say?

"I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. "

This points to John's words later: 1 John 2:19"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." The true sheep of Christ will never ultimately stray from the shepherd, but that same Shepherd will bring them back (or in some cases, take them home).

But Christ continues now with the verse quoted: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Per Thayer's lexicon, the never in this verse is not just your typical never; but rather, it is a particle of negation with a certain emphasis. He says "The particles ou mn, in combination augment the force of the negation, and signify not at all, in no wise, by no means . So, in translating this verse, the words could actually be translated:" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall not at all, in no wise, by any means ever perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Pretty strong language by Christ.

But, it goes beyond that lest you remain skeptical. Three chapters earlier, you find the phrase ou mn once again "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Using the example from the prior paragraph, we see the ou mn in the translation "no wise" or "no way" for modern speakers. So Christ says, ALL that the Father gives to me WILL COME. And of the ALL that come, he will NOT AT ALL, IN NO WISE, BY ANY MEANS EVER cast them out."

Again, I hear the objection "it doesn't mean we can't cast ourselves out. Well, go back to the chapter 10 example. Christ said that those who are his sheep WILL FOLLOW HIM and that they WILL NEVER, NOT AT ALL, IN NO WISE BY ANY MEANS EVER perish. So, this "we can cast ourselves out" really is a hypothetical without Scriptural support. If one leaves Christ, they were not of the fold to begin with.

But lets continue in Chapter 6 a little bit...John 6: 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. Nothing in that verse means NONE. Once again, Christ puts the onus on himself with the protection of those who are His. And, He says, He will lose NONE of those that the Father has given him. Again, strong language. This verse is also found in context with the body and blood verses. He says to those listening: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." So, here, Jesus is putting an emphasis on those who believe verses those who may follow but really aren't believers (like Judas but not solely Judas since the verse is plural).

Just acting like a sheep doesn't make you a sheep. Following the Shepherd around and pretending you are part of the fold doesn't make you one either. Rather, the sheep are the ones chosen by the Father, who WILL BELIEVE, who WILL FOLLOW, and who are protected to the point of death by the GOOD SHEPHERD who will LOSE NONE of them and therefore they will NEVER PERISH. Therefore, it is an impossibility for a true Christian to ever fall away from Christ completely. We may stray, he leaves the 99 and goes after us. If we are disruptive enough to the fold, he may take us home. But, we never cease being His sheep for it was not of us that we became Sheep to begin with. He called us, named us, raised us, and protected us to be His Sheep of whom he would not lose a single one.

This should cause true Christians to rejoice. And, if you are someone who has a desire to stray, knows down deep you are playing at Christianity, it should cause you to examine yourself to see if you are truly of the faith.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

the whole teaching of the OT and up to Christ and his teachings is that the law could never make anyone righteous, that it had the opposite effect. Only God can clothe one in righteousness.

Amen! In fact, I would say that lesson is the very reason for the Old Testament and why we even exist.

Men live because God wishes to display both both His mercy and His wrath. Graciously, for Christians, "mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13).

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You don't work to be innocent of a crime, either you are or you are not. You don't work to be righteous, either you are or you are not.

Amen. It was only when I finally understood what justification really was, that Christ had taken on the burden of paying for our sins so that we could actually stand "innocent" before God, that I knew the depth of the gift of God's grace.

Without that understanding, the rest is striving after false pride.

THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by Zacharias Ursinus

III. IN WHAT DOES RIGHTEOUSNESS DIFFER FROM JUSTIFICATION?

Righteousness is conformity with the law; or, it is the fulfilling, of the law, or that by which we are justified before God. Justification, on the other hand, is the application of this righteousness to anyone. They differ, therefore, as shape and the application of it to an object, or as whiteness and whitening, or making white. Justification admits of the same division which we have made of righteousness, into that which is legal and evangelical. Legal justification consists in effecting in us conformity with God and the law. This is commenced in us when we are regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Evangelical justification is the application of evangelical righteousness; or, it is the application of the righteousness of another, which is without us in Christ; or, it is the imputation and application of that righteousness which Christ wrought out for us by his death upon the cross, and by his resurrection from the dead. It is not a transfusion of righteousness, or of the qualities thereof; but it is the acquitting, or the declaring us free from sin in the judgment of God, on the ground of the righteousness of another. Justification and the forgiveness of sins are, therefore, the same: for to justify is that God should not impute sin unto us, but accept of us and declare us righteous; or, which is the same thing, that he declare us righteous on the ground of the righteousness of Christ made over unto us. That this is the proper signification of the word is clear from these passages of Scripture in which it occurs: "In thy sight shall no man living be justified," that is, no one shall be acquitted, or declared just by inherent righteousness. "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity," etc. (Ps. 143:2; 31:1-2). Paul, in accordance with this declaration of the Psalmist, interprets justification to be the remission of sins, where the word impute is repeated seven times (Rom. 4: 7).

[Blogger]

Your reading of 2 Peter 1:5-10 does not agree with the text. If Peter wanted to say what you impute into it, he would have said it. But he did not: he lists a program of sanctification that, he says, will make the election secure.

Oh come now, Annalex, you know better than that!

Look at what Peter is talking about. Here are some of the verses which precede this:

" According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

Okay, lots of things in this portion of Scripture. First we have a gift that is given by a giver. The giver is God. Who by his divine power gave us certain things. That is significant. God is the giver. What does He give us? All things pertaining to life and godliness. So God all things. Who does He give them to? Small word, He gives them to "US." He doesn't give them to everyone. He gives them to "US." And, who is the "US" that Peter is referring to? The ones he is addressing: Verse 1:"them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" It's the saved by faith in the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ." In short, God's elect.

So, we have God giving His elect all things necessary to life and godliness. But that isn't all that He gives us. He gives them promises. And not just promises, but exceeding great and precious promises. It isn't just scratch my back and I'll scratch yours - but these promises are indicative of how God Himself has worked in their lives. Peter says: "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." These promises help us to commune with and experience God's nature in ways that the world can not but there is another little nugget here - it says we have escaped the world's corruption already. It is not that we are escaping it. We've already escaped it. How? Through the power of God. By His grace we escaped. Done deal. We aren't subjected to the world's corruption. We should have peace, right? Well... we should but don't always. Peter continues.

Peter says, already having escaped the worlds corrutpion through the power of God by faith and having received the promises of God add to your faith these things. Virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, kindness, charity. Sound familiar? It should. Galatians 5: 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Peter and Paul are both speaking of the fruit of the Spirit in one's life. We don't work these things up. The workmanship of God in our lives brings them about naturally. They are the Spirit's fruit. Not ours. And what does Peter say then?

"For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

What is he talking about there? If these things be in you and abound in you, then you will be fruitful in the knowledge of our Lord. It isn't talking about a loss of salvation or lack of salvation. Rather, it is talking about a fruitfulness in one's life and growth as a Christian. Continuing..."But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins." If a true Christian doesn't have these things abounding in their lives, he may suddenly become forgetful that he was purged from His sin and can only see his current state. He isn't fruitful. He is blind in his knowledge of Christ. He isnt' growing. And very likely, he is feeling insecure because He has forgotten that He was already purged from sin. But, let's wrap the verse up...Wherefore the rather, brethren, [those who are of the elect] give diligence [1) to hasten, make haste2) to exert one's self, endeavour, give diligence] to make your calling and election sure[translation:unshaken]: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall[translation: stumble (in your understanding of what Christ has done for you)].

In summary, Peter's verses are not speaking of how one can make their salvation sure by doing good works. The subjects are already those who have already escaped the corruption of the world, been given the promises of God through faith, and have had their sins purged. Rather, he is speaking to those who may have some doubts because the fruit of the Spirit isn't evident in their lives as it should be. They have forgotten, perhaps. But, he is saying "make sure." That's all. Make sure that you are Christ's. And to you that have doubts, but do see these things evident in your lives and abundant, you don't need to worry because they are the Fruits of the Spirit in your lives, indicating that You are His.

[Blogger]

Also pinging you to http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1748533/posts?page=9969#9969

[Running On Empty]

I know what you mean.

Sometimes it really isn't worth the time.

I also can't help but notice that the same posters are there so much of the time. I often wonder if some of them go to meals and bed with their keyboards. And I have become familiar enough now to just see the style, the bolds, the colors, the lengths and breadths and I don't even have to look to see who the poster was. I already know. And there are some who repeat the same message again and again.

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll take it.

Back to the grindstone of daily duty.

ROE

[Running On Empty]

Are the "you"s in this post directed personally at me?

Just curious.

[1000 silverlings]

No, simple bible lessons posted on a public forum where the topic is usually theology.

Matthew 16:11

How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

16:12

Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

I do take my bible to meals and bed, not my keyboard.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Terific post!

"But Christ goes even further than this. He makes the welfare of the sheep not dependent on the sheep at all, but upon Himself - the Good shepherd"

Amen! If His promise is true, then rejoice. The Shepherd will not abandon His flock, but will bring them safely home.

"For non-reformed theologies...at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God -- and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place." - D.A. Carson

"And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you." -- Isaiah 46:4

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Again, I hear the objection "it doesn't mean we can't cast ourselves out. Well, go back to the chapter 10 example. Christ said that those who are his sheep WILL FOLLOW HIM and that they WILL NEVER, NOT AT ALL, IN NO WISE BY ANY MEANS EVER perish. So, this "we can cast ourselves out" really is a hypothetical without Scriptural support. If one leaves Christ, they were not of the fold to begin with.

Amen!

Therefore, it is an impossibility for a true Christian to ever fall away from Christ completely. We may stray, he leaves the 99 and goes after us. If we are disruptive enough to the fold, he may take us home. But, we never cease being His sheep for it was not of us that we became Sheep to begin with. He called us, named us, raised us, and protected us to be His Sheep of whom he would not lose a single one.

It is the condemned of this world who want us cowered and uncertain. We must resist their urging to doubt God's mercy and instead, stand firm in the knowledge that "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6).

[HairOfTheDog]

So... Have you guys figured out if Catholics and/or young children should see this movie or not?

[Captain Gates]

The conservative plain dressing mennonites have a lot of things right. What a beautiful culture it is. We loved our time with them and I often think of them and their holy example that they left us.