Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
The fact remains that the office that is called 'priest' in Christian churches, Latin, Orthodox (or even Anglican), in English speaking countries, is that which is called, 'presbyteros' in Greek. Indeed, the English word 'priest' is derived from the Greek word presbyteros.
Actually, I would have no trouble translating the passage: I would render 'archiereus' into English as 'hierarchs'.
I have already stated that I reject anything Protestant, no matter what flavor. To me, Protesnatism, Arianism, Nestorianism, Donatism, Anabaptism ... is all the same. There is no compromise with heresy.
I am not happy about it; neither is the Church. But we can still be nice to each other! :)
FTR, Blogger is NOT Nestorian. However, man's attempts at explaining what God did not reveal in Scripture should not be taken as means to declare one a heretic. The trinity can be found in Scripture. The deity of Christ can be found in Scripture. Exactly HOW, the precise steps of what occurred in the incarnation can not.
Blogger is no more Nestorian than the Catholic church is which also refers to Mary as Mother of Christ.
Fundies like myself are particularly disinterested in the history of Christian beliefs. We are always left frustrated because to us the pertinent discussion is what the bible says right here and now. There is no real reason to even believe what we hear that such and such group believed in such and such century. If it's not biblical history it's not reliable history. Catholics are so quick to drop names and say who believed what, when. I only wish they were as familiar with the actual bible.
So what we hear is name dropping rather than scripture dropping. Obviously two very different beliefs as to what is of value and what is worthy of our study time.
You have to thank that or you wouldn't be a Catholic. Except for that subset of Catholics that just go through the motions not knowing what it means or what their protty friends believe.
I am not happy about it; neither is the Church. But we can still be nice to each other! :)
I was. I'm always nice.
Point of Fact, not Criticism: Catholic teachings declare that Mary, Mother of Jesus, remained a virgin after His birth and that there was never any subsequent sexual relations between her and Joseph. However, Mary and Joseph were Jews - so never having sex or any more children after Jesus would be counter to what a Jewish marriage required. Further, it is not even Biblical. Joseph was told by God's messenger not to have relations with Mary until after Jesus was born - Matthew-ch.1-v.25 "He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son." - Not ONLY Son, but firstborn Son. The Apostles often referred to Jesus' brothers and sister, as distinguished from cousins and followers. Just pointing out the incongruities here....no offense.....
In a similar sense as when you do word search for "consecration of bishop" and declare it not scriptural. Indeed, veneration of saints is not referred to in the scripture for the simple reason that this form of piety developed in the age of martyrs after the books of the Canon were written. The necessary elements of the veneration of all saints, and of course, especially Mary are in the multiple requests for intercession throughout the gospel (e.g. see the daughter of Jairus episode), and in the fact that the saints have eternal life in Christ ("To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life", Romans 2). To read more, see Communion of Saints.
As Catholics we do not think that our devotions and pieties need to be explicitly mentioned in the scripture. We also do not put too great a stock in pronouncements of unscripturality coming form the Protestants, since in their case the fundamentals of their theologies are not merely unscriptural but counterscriptural.
Veneration and devotions to the Blessed Mother come in addition from her essence as the Mother of God who adopted us all at the foot of the Cross. "All generations shall call me blessed", she predicted. We understand that she participated int he mystery of the Incarnation in a unique way. There is no reason to think that she would not wish to bring the divine plan of salvation to its most glorious fruition also now; and if so, certainly she will add her prayers to ours as we plead for Christ's mercy.
Specifically you refer to the mediatorship of Christ. You forget, however, that in the same passage where His role as the sole mediator is described, intercessory prayers are also prescribed:
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: 6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.(1 Timothy 2)
It should be clear that a prayer to Mary or to a saint is a prayer to Christ; but it is a stronger prayer as now two of us pray, me and her.
pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much(James 5:16)
Your other specific objection is to consecrating the world to Mary, because "God alone is sovereign". Biblically, it is not a contradiction: as Christ is King, Mary is Queen Mother. Her last recorded word is "do as He tells you". We listen.
Bears repeating. My goal is to first, make the Catholic faith clear to the outsiders and secondly, explain why we do what we do. The rest is up to the reader. Marian and other devotions of the Catholic Church are private expressions of the faith. While certain truths about the Blessed Virgin are taught dogmatically, various dedications and devotions to her are not required in order to be Catholic or in order to be saved. Typically, the faithful develop them each in his own personal way, in what a Protestant might somewhat heretically call "relationship with God".
What is taught dogmatically? Her perpetural virginity; her desire to participate in the divine plan of salvation; her mothership and her queenship, and the mystical eschatological connection that exists between her and Christ's Church. The Catechism devotes two chapters to the Blessed Mother:
ARTICLE 3 "HE WAS CONCEIVED BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY"
ARTICLE 9 "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
Well, I think there are other doors I'd like to choose. One would be a distinction between "reliably valid" and "possibly valid". Which is to say NO we don't control the Spirit, but God promised, etc. So we "KNOW" (within the terms of the discussion) that THESE orderes over HERE are valid, but we don't know about THOSE ones - maybe they are, maybe not.
And then the other "hair-spliitng" -- I'm sticking with my strengths here -- would fall under the "diversity of gifts of the Spirit" column. That yeah all the Baptized are granted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean every baptized person gets all the charismata. - As we used to say, The priesthood of ALL believers does not mean the priesthood of EACH believer. Just distinguishing (hair-splitting) here ...
This persistent desire to bury and forget the martyrs of the Church is one of the reasons why it is hard to take Protestantism as a serious expression of faith.
It might have something to do with the fact that I inadvertently discovered just recently, that the eternal life of saints is most clearly stated in the same passage in which the salvific character of works is stated. It must be one of these verses that get skipped over by the sola scripturalists:
6 [God] will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life(Romans 2)
Sorry, but Im exceptionally busy at the moment and my Internet connection isnt all there. I'm missing some of the "action". You made the assertion in 4830
I should also point out this mistaken error:
You see, HD, prooftexting never provides you with a correct answer. It only confuses you.
No, what really confuses me is people telling me a priest is really a bishop but a bishop is not a priest.
I did not say that Consecration of Bishops wasn't Biblical. I just couldn't find the consecration of Timothy and Titus in the Bible and wanted your scripture ref.
Veneration of Mary is NOT in Scripture period.
I only quote for Douay, unless otherwise noted. The original in Titus 1:5 says "presbyterous". This can be rather blandly translated as "elder" but in ecclesial usage the word means "priest". The English "priest" etymologically derives form "presbyteros". The use here in the context of ordainment, "katastase".
Once given, I don't think it right to try and take back your tips.
Is to
When Matthias takes Judas' Bishopric....And they appointed two, Joseph, called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.
Eph 2...Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:
Eph 4.. He that descended is the same also that ascended above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ
*You know, as sola scripturists, y'all gonna have to review it more carefully before making unsupportable assertions
One such icon is Christ Himself.
[Christ] is the image(*) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:(Col 1:15)
The icon of Christ is what forms us and converts us:
whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son(Romans 8:29)
let us bear also the image of the heavenly.
(1 Corinthians 15:49)
we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2 Corinthians 3:18)
putting on the new, him who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of him that created him.
(Colossians 3)
But wait! here is a crucifix:
before [the Galatians'] eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you?(Galatians 3:1)
we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness
(1 Corinthians 1:23)
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