'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[blue-duncan]

'Indeed, how dare we say to God not to lead us into temptation?"

Come on kosta, Blogger said "And how dare you say God tempts man to sin" not "lead us into temptation". God does try His children but (James 1:13) "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" God takes His own through the "Valley of the shadow of Death" but He is still with them. He knows that since we are left in the world there will be trials but Jesus has said (John 17:15) "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

Paul says that God knows our being and has taken that into consideration with the trials He has prepared to mature us (1 Cor. 10:13) "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.". Peter reiterates God's escape plan for us (2 Pet. 2:9) "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

So how can we say that God tempts His own with evil? Comparing scripture with scripture it shows that what Jesus is talking about are the trials given (His prayer "not my will but thine be done")not sin.

[Blogger]

It was horrific everywhere. Including in Roman Catholicism. After all, while Luther is noted for antisemitism, it isn't the Lutherans who are continuously labeled as anti-semites for accusations of blood libel.

Lets just suffice it so say, NONE of Christianity did its job towards the Jews in the Middle ages. Fair?

[Blogger]

Oops, there's that word again. Scratch that. Agreed?

[jo kus]

And I would say that since we are ALL wicked

And I would say that is not what Christianity has taught before Martin Luther came on the scene. Is King David called wicked? We know he sinned, but does this make him wicked? Apparently, being considered wicked implies that one does NOT turn to God after sinning, not that a man will EVER sin...

The Bible is chock full of people who are righteous, who DO turn to God, even after sinning. Unforutately, because your paradigm is based on the premise that ALL are wicked, you will never understand Catholicism at its core.

Regards

[blue-duncan]

"And please don't tell me that the Holy Spirit guides you, because I will ask you to prove it."

Ro. 8:14, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." I am a child of God, 'cause the bilble tells me if I have trusted Jesus for my salvation I am a son of God (John 1:12-13) "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Notice it says "not of the will of the flesh" (reason), "but of God" (Holy Spirit). Kosta, are you a son of God?

[D-fendr]

Some of Christianity was better, some was worse. Some anti-semitism had less effect; some had more. It may be a matter of degree, but a very large degree.

And we can in no way claim Hitler was a Christian - or a Lutheran. But this is a subtopic of Martin Luther's letters and writings, his demeanor, personality, and his effect in history. It would seem a jocular old coot was he. Until we look at his role in the tragic Peasant Revolt, his relationship with the state, his view on power, individualism, and the profound effect he had on his people's culture, politic and future.

A large portion of the back and forth here has been between a persecuted holy man and a derranged tyrant. The truth as usual is in betwen. But, I don't believe it benign.

Study Luther on the power of the state and on war. Study the effect of Luther on the German language and body politic; study the 'seven point plan'...

"Through his sermons and his magnificent translations of the Bible, Luther created the modern German language, aroused in the people not only a new Protestant vision of Christianity by a fervent German nationalism and taught them, at least in religion, the supremacy of the individual conscience. But tragically for them, Luther's siding with the princes in the peasant rising, which he had largely inspired, and his passion for political autocracy ensured a mindless and provincial political absolutism which reduced the vast majority of the German people to poverty, to a horrible torpor and a demeaning subservience.
- William L. Shirer, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich"


“It was Luther, we must understand, who began to Germanise Christianity; National Socialism must complete the process.”
- Alfred Rosenberg, Author of key Nazi ideological creeds, executed at Nuremberg for war crimes.

“I do insist on the certainty that sooner or later—once we hold power—Christianity will be overcome and the German church, without a Pope and without the Bible, and Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing.”
-“Hitler's Speeches”, edited by Professor N. H. Baynes (Oxford, 1942)

This will be the last I post on this. I thought that aspect was relevant and missing, but I don't want to continue it past this.

[kosta50]

James 1:13

I am glad your random verse generator works fine. However, your 'counter-verse" does not reconcile with the Lord's Prayer that asks God not to lead us into temptation.

[D-fendr]

Oh, and yeah, we can scratch that word.

That's fair.

:)

[kosta50]

that deosn't tell me anything. You are reading into the verse.

God gave us power to choose; He made us in the His image and gave us dominion over earth. Born of blood refers to blood lineage; the will of the flesh is concupiscence, not reason! Will of man is carnal.

[Blogger]

Not correct Kosta. It is very "Calvinist" and I ARE one :)

Here are a few early confessions from the Reformed tradition to help with where they stood.

The Scottish Confession (John Knox)
Chapter 2 - The Creation of Man

We confess and acknowledge that our God has created man, i.e.., our first father, Adam, after his own image and likeness, to whom he gave wisdom, lordship, justice, free will, and self-consciousness, so that in the whole nature of man no imperfection could be found. From this dignity and perfection man and woman both fell; the woman being deceived by the serpent and man obeying the voice of the woman, both conspiring against the sovereign majesty of God, who in clear words had previously threatened death if they presumed to eat of the forbidden tree.

Chapter 3 - Original Sin

By this transgression, generally known as original sin, the image of God was utterly defaced in man, and he and his children became by nature hostile to God, slaves to Satan, and servants to sin. And thus everlasting death has had, and shall have, power and dominion over all who have not been, are not, or shall not be born from above. This rebirth is wrought by the power of the Holy Ghost creating in the hearts of God's chosen ones an assured faith in the promise of God revealed to us in his Word; by this faith we grasp Christ Jesus with the graces and blessings promised in him.

---

Canons of Dordt:
The Third and Fourth Main Points of Doctrine

Human Corruption, Conversion to God,

and the Way It Occurs

Article 1: The Effect of the Fall on Human Nature

Man was originally created in the image of God and was furnished in his mind with a true and salutary knowledge of his Creator and things spiritual, in his will and heart with righteousness, and in all his emotions with purity; indeed, the whole man was holy. However, rebelling against God at the devil's instigation and by his own free will, he deprived himself of these outstanding gifts. Rather, in their place he brought upon himself blindness, terrible darkness, futility, and distortion of judgment in his mind; perversity, defiance, and hardness in his heart and will; and finally impurity in all his emotions.

Article 2: The Spread of Corruption

Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God's just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants— except for Christ alone—not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature.
Article 3: Total Inability

Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

---

Belgic Confession 1619
Article 14: The Creation and Fall of Man

We believe that God created man from the dust of the earth and made and formed him in his image and likeness— good, just, and holy; able by his own will to conform in all things to the will of God.

But when he was in honor he did not understand it^21 and did not recognize his excellence. But he subjected himself willingly to sin and consequently to death and the curse, lending his ear to the word of the devil.

For he transgressed the commandment of life, which he had received, and by his sin he separated himself from God, who was his true life, having corrupted his entire nature.

So he made himself guilty and subject to physical and spiritual death, having become wicked, perverse, and corrupt in all his ways. He lost all his excellent gifts which he had received from God, and he retained none of them except for small traces which are enough to make him inexcusable.

---

The Heidelberg Catechism

. Q. Did God, then, create man so wicked and perverse?

A. No, on the contrary, God created man good[1] and in His image,[2] that is, in true righteousness and holiness,[3] so that he might rightly know God His Creator,[4] heartily love Him, and live with Him in eternal blessedness to praise and glorify Him.[5]

[1] Gen. 1:31. [2] Gen. 1:26, 27. [3] Eph. 4:24. [4] Col. 3:10. [5] Ps. 8.

7. Q. From where, then, did man's depraved nature come?

A. From the fall and disobedience of our first parents, Adam and Eve, in Paradise,[1] for there our nature became so corrupt[2] that we are all conceived and born in sin.[3]

[1] Gen. 3. [2] Rom. 5:12, 18, 19. [3] Ps. 51:5.

8. Q. But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined to all evil?

A. Yes,[1] unless we are regenerated by the Spirit of God.[2]

[1] Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; Is. 53:6. [2] John 3:3-5.

9. Q. Is God, then, not unjust by requiring in His law what man cannot do?

A. No, for God so created man that he was able to do it.[1] But man, at the instigation of the devil,[2] in deliberate disobedience[3] robbed himself and all his descendants of these gifts.[4]

[1] Gen. 1:31. [2] Gen. 3:13; John 8:44; I Tim. 2:13, 14. [3] Gen. 3:6. [4] Rom. 5:12, 18, 19.

---

Westminster Confession:
1. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtlety and temptation of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit.a This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.b

a. Gen 3:13; 2 Cor 11:3. • b. Rom 11:32.

2. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God,a and so became dead in sin,b and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.c

a. Gen 3:6-8; Eccl 7:29; Rom 3:23. • b. Gen 2:17; Eph 2:1. • c. Gen 6:5; Jer 17:9; Rom 3:10-19; Titus 1:15.

3. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed,a and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.b

a. Gen 1:27-28 and 2:16-17 and Acts 17:26 with Rom 5:12, 15-19 and 1 Cor 15:21-22; 1Cor 15:45, 49. • b. Gen 5:3; Job 14:4; 15:14; Psa 51:5.

The Westminster Confession of Faith: Chapter 9



Chapter 9. Of Free Will.

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.a

a. Deut 30:19; Mat 17:12; James 1:14.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God,a but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.b

a. Gen 1:26; Eccl 7:29. • b. Gen 2:16-17; 3:6.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;a so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,b and dead in sin,c is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.d

a. John 15:5; Rom 5:6; 8:7. • b. Rom 3:10, 12. • c. Eph 2:1, 5; Col 2:13. • d. John 6:44, 65; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 2:2-5; Titus 3:3-5.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin,a and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;b yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.c

a. John 8:34, 36; Col 1:13. • b. Rom 6:18, 22; Phil 2:13. • c. Rom 7:15, 18-19, 21, 23; Gal 5:17.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.a

a. Eph 4:13; Heb 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude 1:24.

[Blogger]

It is wrong to tag luther with responsibility for the Nazis. In this nation we have Freedom of Religion, but if I use that Freedom to force others to convert to Islam can I then turn around and blame the originating founding documents that allowed the freedom to begin with.

Luther was NOT unusual for his day.

With my Masters Thesis, part of my study entailed looking at how the nobility (in this case in Scotland) behaved towards one another. It was barbaric. Brother would cut the tongue out of brother and let him bleed to death over land. Cousins would slay one another without a qualm and even in a church (check the meaning of the family crest for the Kirkpatrick family of Scotland). And, of course the Jews were blamed for EVERYTHING.

This is no excuse. But I can't sit here and see Luther tagged as particularly unusual for his day. After all, Luther wasn't alone in his violent actions in the name of Christianity. Catholicism had made it a regular part of their religion for centuries and Calvinism was no stranger to it.

It is not right to evaluate Luther according to our times. He must be seen as a product of his own times. He had many good points. But in some quite substantial ways he was very wrong.

[Blogger]

God leading one into temptation verses God causing one to sin are two different things. The Holy Spirit led Christ into the wilderness to be tempted. Satan did the tempting. You do not see God tempting man to sin in Scripture. He leads him to a place of trial and provides the werewithal to withstand the trial. He does not tempt him to sin.

[D-fendr]

Just didn't want to confuse him with St. Aquinas, Augustine or Francis of Assisi.

[Blogger]

I don't think there is much danger of that.

[D-fendr]

Cool. I'll remind you of that. ;)

[Blogger]

Calvin and Augustine on the otherhand....

[Forest Keeper]

That's the filioque innovation you guys learned from the Latins.

As you might have suspected, the only real reason I posted that was to poke a little fun at our Catholic friends, since NONE of them challenged Kosta's earlier statement of the Orthodox view on the subject. Since that statement jumped off the page at me, I would have thought, etc. etc. :) I only learned what the filioque even is on the L&E thread. I do realize that it is a huge issue for you all, and I respect that. It just hasn't reached major issue status for me yet.

[+Gregory Palamas:] It is from the Logos's discourse with us through His incarnation that we have learned what is the name of the Spirit's distinct mode of coming to be from the Father and that the Spirit belongs not only to the Father but also to the Logos. For He says 'the Spirit of Truth, who proceeds from the Father' (John 15:26), so that we may know that from the Father comes not solely the Logos - who is begotten from the Father - but also the Spirit who proceeds from the Father.

Thanks for the quote (and the link). This verse is interesting, but I have to admit that I am not the guy to be debating this. :) I know that I don't even fully understand why this is important yet. FWIW, I found part of an argument from the other side on New Advent:

As to the Sacred scripture, the inspired writers call the holy Ghost the Spirit of the Son (Galatians 4:6), the spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9), the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Phil., i, 19), just as they call Him the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:20) and the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:11). Hence they attribute to the Holy Ghost the same relation to the Son as to the Father. Again, according to Sacred Scripture, the Son sends the Holy Ghost (Luke 24:49; John 15:26; 16:7; 20:22; Acts 2:33; Titus 3:6), just as the Father sends the Son (Romans 3:3; etc.), and as the Father sends the Holy Ghost (John 14:26).

This is under the filioque section. The argument sort of sounds like "sent by" and "proceed from" are the same thing. I remember something about them being very different, but I couldn't explain it well to anyone. :)

In any event, I am not sure of statements from Palamas such as "Yet the Spirit has His existence from the Father alone, and hence He proceeds as regards His existence only from the Father." Since everyone agrees that all Three are co-eternal, I don't see how these go together.

It is important because it effects the monarchy of The Father.

Is there a way to summarize how this is?

It is good to hear that both sides are seeming to come together on the issue.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

How can anyone speak of Luther's antisemitism centuries ago when we have a far more recent example of Christian brotherhood in Pope Pius XII (Eugenio Pacelli) and the Enabling Acts?

[D-fendr]

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Revisionism.