'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children

LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

[wmfights]

"Yes indeed. In addition, this scripture directly contradicts the opening words of the Protoevangelium of James:"
_____________________________

Again the Bereans are an example of how we should respond to any new belief.

It's surprising that so much doctrine and ritual can be created around a document that all scholars acknowledge is a forgery. FWIW, I believe it speaks volumes that NONE of the Apostles thought to write about Mary and any "special" powers she possessed.

Mary is clearly a special person in our faith, but it diminishes her to create a mythology around her that just isn't true.

[Nihil Obstat]

and Jesus was baptized too

[mockingbyrd]

I freely admit it, I cry every time I read it....

[The_Reader_David]

During the reign of Justinian. I've forgotten the exact year. How pray is the relevant to whether or not Origen is a sound source? Again, look at his works yourself, and you will surely confirm the judgement of the Council that he was a heretic.

[blue-duncan]

See post #310

[adiaireton8]

See 286.

[Nihil Obstat]

How do you know that Mary just wasn't "being obedient to the law"? You must admit that her pregnancy was like no other.

[adiaireton8]

The original point that you were trying to make (in 283) was to show that Mary undergoing the purification rite shows that Mary was impure. But the example of Jesus being baptized by John shows that just because one undergoes a rite of cleansing, this does not prove that the person undergoing the rite was unclean. Therefore, Mary's undergoing the rite of purification does not show that Mary was impure or unclean.

-A8

[Campion]

There isn't any question that she was impure according to the law; not virtually impure, actually impure

"Impurity" in the Mosaic legal sense isn't a moral failing. Proof: God can't command anyone to sin, yet he commands various practices that cause legal impurity. Childbirth, for example. The burial of the dead, for another.

[Campion]

The miracle is Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection. That is where Christian's should be focusing attention.

That's a rather strange comment. The Incarnation is a prerequisite for the "sacrifice and resurrection"; indeed, some commentators would say that it's the initial part of the sacrifice. It's certainly one of the central mysteries of the Christian faith.

Paul seems to have no problem writing a beautiful meditation on the Incarnation in Phil 2:5-11, and another one as a major theme of the Epistle to the Hebrews.

[blue-duncan]

She was being obedient to the law because she was impure from the birth. She had a male child,

Luke 2:22-24, "And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
(As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons."

Lev. 12:1-4, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled."

It does carry with it moral impurity for the need for purification arises out of sin. That is why there is the proscription against touching any hallowed thing or entering the sanctuary.

Gen. 3:15-16, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children..."

[Campion]

It does carry with it moral impurity for the need for purification arises out of sin.

Assertion isn't proof. God commanded childbirth; God cannot command sin.

[Nihil Obstat]

see post #329

[wmfights]

"I've forgotten the exact year. How pray is the relevant to whether or not Origen is a sound source? "
________________________________

I'll try and find out the year the Fifth Ecumenical Council occurred. It's interesting because so much seems to have developed after the fact. During his life Origen ran Christian schools, was noted for his faith and wrote at great length. As a result, he offers a lot of insight into what the thinking was in his day (182 - 251 AD).

[wmfights]

"I've forgotten the exact year."
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I found it (Wikepedia) the Fifth Ecumenical Council was from May 5th to June 2nd 553 AD. It was 300 years after the death of Origen. I'll have to read up on "Origenism".

[TomSmedley]

The phrase Christian Doctrine about Mary sounds a little bit like an oxymoron. Christian doctrine deals with properly knowing, loving, and serving the true God, the Blessed Trinity. Christian doctrine does not, as far as I know, deal with adding new deities to the pantheon by elevating one human being in status to the point where she is a de facto fourth person in the Trinity. A goddess who serves as a counterweight to the Second Person of the godhead.

[adiaireton8]

The phrase Christian Doctrine about Mary sounds a little bit like an oxymoron. Christian doctrine deals with properly knowing, loving, and serving the true God, the Blessed Trinity.

Do you affirm the Nicene Creed or not?

-A8

[blue-duncan]

"Therefore, Mary's undergoing the rite of purification does not show that Mary was impure or unclean."

That would be true if she did not not deliver a male child in birth. Her having conceived seed, and born a man child, by the Law, rendered her impure and unclean. Jesus was sinless. His baptism was in obedience to the Law in that He identified Himself with sinners so as to become the "sin bearer" and as evidence to John that Messiah had come.

John 1:29, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God."

The pain and sorrow of childbirth was the judgment for sin.

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children..."

[adiaireton8]

That would be true if she did not not deliver a male child in birth.

No, the argument that I gave in 329 is sound (i.e. the premises are true, and the conclusion follows necessarily from the premises), whether or not Mary gave birth to a male child.

-A8