Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480
Very true. But God has purposed the world so that there is a certain logic within existence that is of Him and by Him.
I love the verses that speak to our "quickened minds." God not only gave us new hearts and new ears and new eyes, but He also reordered our minds, our intellect, our method of discerning truth through a type of logic which, of course, must begin and end with Him.
"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" -- Hebrews 10:16 "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." -- Philippians 4:7
The very act of writing is by definition an act of logic. We received the Ten Commandments and the Holy Scriptures in sentences, not pictures. The Holy Spirit comes to us through our minds in actual words, transforming our own thoughts into His.
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." -- Romans 12:2
The only other time the word "renewing" is used in Scriputre is in Titus, and it is defined as an act by the Holy Spirit...
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:5
God no doubt ordained this pattern so that men could get together and weigh the words and meanings in order to better understand His intent, comparing Scripture with Scripture. One of my new favorite verses explains exactly how "logical" and self-evident the Holy Spirit is in the Bible --
"And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left." -- Isaiah 30:21
Wooooooooooo, brother! You 'bout had me shoutin' in my office.. Praise God!!!
Dr. E, when I wrote that I was thinking you might like it. :)
You’re way ahead of me if you’ve found a solid Presbyterian church. Mine is still afloat in some confusion. 8~(
Indeed, all of God's creation is ordered. The mathematics (logic, geometry, information) is so fundamental that physicist Wigner calls it "the unreasonable effectiveness of math." BTW, I see the mathematics also a language of God's creation.
Meanwhile, we who are creatures must realize that we suffer from an "observer problem" - we cannot remove ourselves from the creation to see "all that there is" objectively. Thus we ought never to anthropomorphize God.
Amen! Ain't it the truth.
The church is verrrrry serious about keeping the Lord's Day. The psalm singing is unbelievable. First verse starts out with everyone singing same notes, next verse all the harmonies begin. I'm not kidding you when I say that it is beautiful.
There are a few students from the Eastman School of Music here in Rochester, and they lead the singing. It really is impressive. Of course, I try to keep my singing very soft and low, so as to not ruin things.
The pastor and his lovely family have a great dane, named Knox, and I thought that might tickle your Scottish- Lass fancy. Now I'm no longer afraid of great danes. Boy are they regal!
By the way, at dinner the pastor was saying that the roster of the Reformed Presbyterian Church (the old Covenanters) no longer boasts most readily the names of McMann, MacIntyre, etc, but Silveggio and d'Amico instead. I thought that was interesting. How things change...
It's a continuum. There are some things that all Christians believe and must claim as fact in order to be Christians. These are nonnegotiable. However, there are many others that Christians of good conscience may disagree on, as we see all the time here. So, I still think the core of Christian faith is fact-based and not blind.
I was laughing with my wife last night as I had to admit that Sharpton may have actually said something of merit with his Romney crack. :) I'm not positive, but I think you would agree that Mormonism is not a Christian faith, it is some other faith. They do not hold to the core Christian beliefs that we do, even though you and I disagree on so many other things. I don't hope or "wish" that those core beliefs are true, I consider them as facts.
For one thing it is a further evidence of the Spirit's personhood, and supports the idea of the Trinity. I don't see it as any big deal that the Spirit "took" or "led" Jesus into the desert. Jesus also prayed to the Father. We know the relationships. The Spirit leads US, and we are to pray to the Father.
PRAISE GOD AND AMEN TO THAT.
You should find the CD about Jesus Brokenness or some such . . . Maranatha . . . I got the title right on a recent post on some thread the last 24 hrs.
AMEN! Thanks for posting. :)
“Heresy” is false teaching. “Disposition” is presence of personal sin. If a bishop falls into sin while teaching correct doctrine, he is an orthodox bishop who happens to be human in need of confession. If a bishop falls into heresy, he no longer leads an orthodox Church and cannot consecrate priests.
The issue is obnoxious restatement of the points already made and responded to. This wastes time. Whoever asks a question, Joe and I are happy to answer.
I will always be happy to respond to a question or listen to a new argument. When the same stuff is rehashed, especially of “water is womb” variety, I tend to want to skip it in order to use my time more productively by talking to people who seem to be interested in having a dialog.
I would say hey are nonnegotiable truths, but they are not (demonstrable) facts except to a believer.
Thus, the Holy Trinity, or dual nature of Christ is non-negotiable dogma of main-line Christians (Orthodox/Catholic/Protestant/Baptist) but is not demonstrable without an apriori faith.
That is the core. And it's not much. Outsiode of that, just about everything esle is negotiable and disagreeable in that bunch.
I had to admit that Sharpton may have actually said something of merit with his Romney crack
I though it is curious (if not symptomatic) that no one is asking for his resignation. Obviosuly, we have a double standard here, although I do not consider LDS "Christian" anything.
But don't get me wrong. I am all for principled discussions and not for politically correct ambiguity. People need to state what they believe in. We don't have to agree with their beliefs, but we can only expect to be free to believe and worship if we allow others to do the same, ragardless what we think of their theology.
My point was that God is never partially God, but always perfect, complete God. This is suggestively implied, in my opinion, in Mat 3:16, where the Holy Spirit is seen descending on Jesus after he emerges from the baptismal waters.
Christ's divine nature is complete, perfect God whis at no time without the Father or the Spirit.
In Mat 4:1 it says that fllowing His paritsm and the HS descending on Him, Jesus was ledleading and Jesus following to be tempted of the devil.
Why would He be led by none other than the HS to be tempted? First, I propose that the Word was with the Spirit all the time, and with the Father, and that He didn't need to be led by anyone as if lacking in ability to lead himself, why the temptation when God knew that it would not work.
Because God apparently thought the world needed to wait a few thousand years before Christ showed up. In the meantime, He tried everything else, it seems, floods, giants, plagues, you name it.
Are you saying that God only resolved to send Christ after He had FAILED at trying other things? How does Perfect fail? Jesus' sacrifice applied retroactively. God isn't subject to time, right? The OT righteous were saved by grace through faith, exactly the same way we were.
Besides, I already told you I don't know where the Church is getting the idea that Christ went to Hades to rescue the OT "righteous," including Adam and Eve, nor do I know why Adam and Eve would have been "righteous." All this is nebulous, legendary and mythical to me and certainly not biblical.
I agree that it isn't Biblical, which is why I don't believe it. I also don't KNOW as a fact that Adam and Eve were saved, I just "think" so. One small clue that Eve, at least, had repented is in Gen. 4:1-2. But, it may not be a slam dunk.
Let's not forget that at His Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, Moses and Elijah were there...physically! That means Moses was not in hell...
Excellent point.
FK: "Upon being born again, there is an emergence of a completely new being, not existent before (2 Cor. 5:17). I don't understand why you think it is a play on words."
There is no new being born. There is one and the same person who dropped his arrogance and pride and decided to obey God's will, to accept God's free offer and follow Him, as in "sell everything you have and follow Me." Clinging to God is a decision.
But Jesus says it as plainly as it can be said. What is your interpretation of:
John 3:3 : In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
I can only assume you would say infant baptism. It never occurred to me before that you don't believe there is a very real change of a person at the point of belief. You all believe the Spirit temporarily indwells at infant baptism, and the rest is up to us, so there wouldn't be any need for a change in nature of the person from a slave to sin, to one of righteousness, etc. All the many verses that refer to this transformation just mean "something" else.
I do not believe the Bible is a literal word of God. I believe it contains God's truths, along with legends and myths, embellished with human desires, culture and historical issues.
If the Bible includes human desires in ADDITION to God's truths, then they must oppose each other since if they were the same they would be included as under God's truths. Therefore, you cannot believe the Bible is inerrant. In addition, if human desires are added, then God should prove the Bible to be a document with lies:
Prov 30:5-6 : 5 "Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
I for one do not believe the Bible is a document with lies. :)
I have a strong suspicion that [Paul] did appoint himself, but that he honestly believed it was his destiny.
If Paul did appoint himself, then he could not have been sent. That means he was not one of God's chosen Apostles, and you should discredit absolutely everything he ever said that was not officially sanctioned by the consensus patrum. And, if Paul WAS a fraud, then what does that say about the Church in the areas it agrees with him, based on his writings?
AMEN! Excellent post. The scripture says what it says.
You two have had a most enjoyable conversation lately; thank you for including me as a spectator. It is a testimony to Christian faith that you can do it, and where I cannot, I try.
One day, after we all die, we will look at such talk and be very pleasantly amused. Now we see darkly, but in the Lord’s time we will see it bright.
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