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'The Nativity Story' Movie Problematic for Catholics, "Unsuitable" for Young Children
LifeSiteNews.com ^ | 12/4/2006 | John-Henry Westen

Posted on 12/04/2006 7:52:47 PM PST by Pyro7480

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To: Kolokotronis

That's great. Can I use it?


1,301 posted on 12/13/2006 6:45:45 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis; annalex; redgolum; P-Marlowe; adiaireton8; jo kus; xzins; blue-duncan; ...
Please don't tell me that just because you're Greek you know the thought process of every Greek

HD, what Kolokotronis is telling you is anything but that. I am a little surprised that you would think that.

What Koloktoronis is telling you is that you can't learn English from a book. Rather, one has to learn the spoken language used by native-speakers. You can't learn the finesse, the "soul" of any language from a book.

There is something called "idiomatic expression," a sentence or a statement that says one thing but really means something else. To someone who is unfamiliar with the culture in which it is used, such an expression either makes no sense or leads to a wrong conclusion. "Being stoned" in the 1st century Middle East did not mean being "high" on some drug.

Nor does being "high" on some drug mean you are really "up" there! All these are "normal" idiomatic expresisons to English-speakers who do not for a moment confuse the actual words with the meaning.

In my six years spent in Japan, I discovered that most Japanese study English from kindergarten onward and never learn it because they interpret English within a Japanese mindset, grammar and linguistic framework.

One particular example stands in my mind, and it has to do with Lark cigarettes. They were advertised with a simple sentence "SPEAK Lark"

At first, this "language" known as "Japanglish" was startling, but then I realized that it was based on a very subtle misconception based on the way the Japanese language is trustucred (which is very, very different from English).

In Japanese, the word "say" or "tell" does not exist. The closest form to it is "speak." So, rather than market the product in the spirit of the English language as "Say 'Lark'" the Japanese simply translated clumsily from the book (after all speak and say are synonymous in a thesaurus, so they must be interchangeable, right?).

As far as the book is concerned, it is "correct," but to English speakers it is obviously flawed, because raw "book logic" is not the living language.

Hence, Koloktronis's message to you, and the Apostolic Church's point to the Protestants, that one cannot simply read the Book in any language and any culture and "know."

Here is another fine exmaple of what I mean by Japanglish. Enjoy. :)


1,302 posted on 12/13/2006 6:47:13 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: P-Marlowe
You offered no proof of the existence of any doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary. If she is the "New Eve" as you say, then she would fall under God's first commandment to Eve, "be fruitful and multiply".

In a mystical sense, she IS! We see Mary as a type of Church, and Mary is our spiritual Mother, just as the Church is our Mother (giving birth to us through baptism and nuturing us through the Word and Sacrament). BOTH bring Christ to us. Mary has been given to us by Christ - He gave her to the beloved disciple. We are ALL His beloved disciple. Who was He giving to us? Mary/Church. Christ established a community through which His graces flow. Even you must admit that the Church, the people of God, has given us the Scriptures and proper understanding of it. Thus, we see that through the Church/Mary, all graces flow. We see the Church/Mary as a virgin, undefiled and wholly committed to Christ. We see obedience and faith in Christ come from Church/Mary. In Scriptures, the Fathers point to various places and see BOTH Mary and the Church - Song of Songs, Genesis 3:15, Rev 12, Luke 1. Really, you probably could make a case that anything with Mary in it can point to the people of God - and vice versus.

With this rough analysis, perhaps you can understand why the Church declares that Mary was a perpetual virgin. It says something about the CHURCH, as well as Mary.

Regards

1,303 posted on 12/13/2006 6:49:40 AM PST by jo kus (Humility is present when one debases oneself without being obliged to do so- St.Chrysostom; Phil 2:8)
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To: P-Marlowe
However that did not relieve her of her duty of devotion to her husband. She was married to Joseph.

I already dealt with that above at posts #213 and #236 in this thread.

-A8

1,304 posted on 12/13/2006 6:51:30 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: kosta50; jo kus; Kolokotronis; Agrarian; Petrosius; annalex; NYer
Now that I have shown that Catholics do not indeed believe that we inherit the personal guilt of Original Sin I would like to address what it is. Both the Council of Trent and the Catechism of the Catholic Church describe the reatum/fallen state of Original Sin as a loss of holiness and justice. The Orthodox sources that I have seen speak of consequences of the Original Sin, the chief of which is death. Yet they also say, as do Catholics, that Baptism imparts Sanctifying Grace into the soul. The question that I raise is how do the Orthodox view Sanctifying Grace and how does it, or does it not, differ from Catholic belief? Also, what is its relationship with Original Sin?
1,305 posted on 12/13/2006 7:06:53 AM PST by Petrosius
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To: blue-duncan

"That's great. Can I use it?":

Of course; The Church has for 1400 years or so. What the image shows is +Joseph's doubts about the virgin birth, questioning what he has gotten himself into and what's going to happen to them, all very human reactions, and prompted by the devil shown as an old man in the hair cloak.


1,306 posted on 12/13/2006 7:07:52 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

You know, when you think about it, he had to be a great man of faith to endure and overcome the doubts and questions concerning the relationship. And if that wasn't enough, Mary's cousin was a part of the priestly class and he had a big mouth counter-culture hippie for a nephew. He could not hide anywhere but in his carpenter's shop.


1,307 posted on 12/13/2006 7:17:04 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: xzins

The Tribulation period is called the "Time of Jacob's Trouble." The main focus of the Tribulation is NOT the church, but Israel. God is saving His remnant. Israel is the woman in Rev 12.


1,308 posted on 12/13/2006 7:41:08 AM PST by Blogger
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To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis; P-Marlowe; adiaireton8; jo kus; xzins; blue-duncan; Frumanchu
I still can not make out what your comment is saying.

As a Catholic I do not decide what the scripture means. I ask my Church and the Chruch has the answer. To think that reading and understanding the Scripture is an exercise profitable to an individual outside of the environment of the Church is a uniquely Protestant conceit. We don't do that, as a rule.

1,309 posted on 12/13/2006 7:53:08 AM PST by annalex
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To: blue-duncan

"You know, when you think about it, he had to be a great man of faith to endure and overcome the doubts and questions concerning the relationship."

Indeed he was and rather underrated I'm afraid by many Christians. What a situation to face! Tradition (I know, I know!) tells us that he was chosen by the priests at the Temple for Mary and that he was quite old, about 70 and a widower (which has given rise to speculation that the "brothers" refered to were step brothers. She was an orphan by the time of her betrothal.

Its the humanity of +Joseph which so impresses me and which this Nativity icon which The Church has given us demonstrates so forcefully. Sometimes I think that Christians view the Church, through Western eyes, as something run by rigid rules uniformly and rigorously applied with no snesitive understanding of the human situation. This icon shows otherwise. The Church knows that we will have doubts, even the step father of The Lord had them and that's OK. That's why I said I'm not offended that Protestants don't accept our Marian dogmas. Orthodoxy reminds us that our doubts about The Faith are inevitable whether they are purely internal, born of our distorted state, or prompted by external influences like demons. The best any of us can do is pray "Lord I believe; help my unbelief."


1,310 posted on 12/13/2006 7:54:02 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
The best any of us can do is pray "Lord I believe; help my unbelief."

*************

Wonderful and inspiring post. Thank you.

1,311 posted on 12/13/2006 7:56:03 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Quester
Israel ... of the twelve tribes.

I don't know of any other woman but Mary who gave birth to Christ, and that is the woman Apocalypse 12 is talking about (see verses 5, 10). She is, of course, the embodiment and perfection of Israel, so your meaning is indeed typologically not incorrect. Another typology there is the Church of Christ.

The anger that marian devotions evoke in the enemies of the Church is evident on every thread like this one. Satan hates Mary because unlike Eve, she chose to do God's will.

The birth pangs described in Apoc. 12:2 are indeed a good reason not to subscribe tot he notion that the Virgin did not suffer the birth pains. Rome does not teach either way. However, note that the entire book of Apocalypse is highly metaphorical and so it is not illogical to see in verse 2 not a reference to physiological pain but rather to the pain of mankind groaning under sin and waiting for the Redeemer.

The Twelve stars are type of the tribes of Israel as well as the twelve apostles.

1,312 posted on 12/13/2006 8:02:30 AM PST by annalex
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To: DungeonMaster
We Christians can all bind and loose

Keys open gates. The key in Matthew 16 is the key to salvation. Binding and loosing refers to legislation, given first Peter but then the apostles also, and no you were not told to bind and loose, unless you are a bishop and heir of the Apostles, who were given the authority directly.

1,313 posted on 12/13/2006 8:05:53 AM PST by annalex
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To: redgolum
Augustine and Pope Gregory the Great viewed that the only place for sex in marriage is procreation

We still teach that. So, where does the Church teach that sex is bad?

1,314 posted on 12/13/2006 8:07:38 AM PST by annalex
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To: Kolokotronis

"The best any of us can do is pray "Lord I believe; help my unbelief."

That should be a required first line in any discussion concerning theological differences among christians.

When you think about it, when the synagogue rulers identified Jesus as the "son of the carpenter" and Jesus as a carpenter, it was a compliment to Joseph's workmenship and his tutoring of Jesus in the trade. Nazareth bring a good sized town at that time must have had many carpenters, but Joseph was known for his trade.


1,315 posted on 12/13/2006 8:09:03 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: P-Marlowe

Apparently you are under the delusion that I never read this passage. You are mistaken.


1,316 posted on 12/13/2006 8:09:58 AM PST by annalex
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To: Blogger

You could be right.


1,317 posted on 12/13/2006 8:27:24 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: annalex
The anger that marian devotions evoke in the enemies of the Church is evident on every thread like this one. Satan hates Mary because unlike Eve, she chose to do God's will.

Exactly. "And I will put enmity between you [Satan] and the woman" (Gen 3:15)

Satan hates Mary also because of envy. Mary is now the most exalted creature, a place Lucifer once had.

-A8

1,318 posted on 12/13/2006 8:28:48 AM PST by adiaireton8 ("There is no greater evil one can suffer than to hate reasonable discourse." - Plato, Phaedo 89d)
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To: Blogger
you just ignorred all of the Scripture which says that we have been given the Holy Spirit as believers

No I did not. We are indeed given the Holy Ghost at the sacrament of confirmation (chrysmation to the Orthodox).

I've already said what I think the keys to the Kingdom mean. They are the power to bind and loose

You think that, I know, but it is not what the scripture says.

Salvation is through God alone. It happens one way. Not through church membership. Not through baptism. Not through Eucharist. Not through church attendance or tithing. None of those things. Salvation is through Christ alone. Through faith alone. Exclusive of works - though it will show works as evidence that it has happened.

Salvation is from Christ alone, yes. The rest of what you said is not supported by the scripture, not taught by the Church and is a Protestant extrascriptural fantasy. For example, Eph 2:8 which you cite goes on to say that we should walk in good works prepared for us by God, and when it says that we are not saved of works, it qualified that these are works done for boast or reward. This is consistent throughout Pauline epistles: that work of obligation, or work done for reward, do not save, but that work of charity is necessary for salvation. After all, James 2:24 says it plainly: "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?". If you twist that into some faith-alone knot, you are following traditions of Luther, and not the scripture.

Regarding security of salvation, you are reading into the scripture what is not in it. John 10 does speak of it. But it does not say that a sinner cannot cast himself out of the hand of God. Nor does it say that the Church may not determine what sin is. In other scripture we read that men do lose their faith and the Church does condemn them to hell (1 Tim 1:19-20, and again Mt 18:17)

Rome did not become supreme until centuries later

I gave you an example of Pope Clement, 2c. dealing authoritatively with the Corinthians. Yes, the power of the papacy grew gradually in response to the Church's need. Turn away form Protestant heresies, and that power will be relaxed.

Your church has lied to You

I can tell you who lied. Luther lied. He invented his stupid theology out of his masturbation habit. He proceeded to spit vomit against the Church of Christ. He mutilated the scripture to fit his error, desecrated churches and monasteries and started 30 thousand para-christian sects. Don't you dare tell me calumnies against my Church. You Protestant background denies you standing.

1,319 posted on 12/13/2006 8:32:39 AM PST by annalex
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To: annalex; Blogger

Caution: stay with the issues and do not make it personal.


1,320 posted on 12/13/2006 8:35:14 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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