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To: bornacatholic
I will grant you that what you cited is a teaching of the Catholic Church. However, not all the theologians who are considered Fathers and Doctors of the Catholic Church over the centuries are in 100% agreement with Catholic doctrine as it stands in 2006. Pre-Nicene fathers such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus believed in the premillennial Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Jerome did not believe in the divine inspiration of the Deuterocanonical books. Augustine of Hippo was closer to Calvin and Luther in soteriology than is the modern Catholic church, specifically, the issue of divine election vs. free will. Thomas Aquinas had problems with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, as Catholic teachings define it (though not denying the Virgin Mary's sinless condition when Jesus Christ was conceived).

Modern day Catholic doctrine teaches that non-Catholic Christians, and even Jews and Moslems, may possibly be saved, a sharp contrast with the anathemas of the Council of Trent, which condemned all who do not believe in the specific doctrines of Catholicism to Hell. The traditionalist faction, which thinks itself as the only true Catholics left on earth, regard the changes in the Mass, mostly adopted in the 1960s, as incorporating Masonic, Protestant, and pagan practices. Thus, in their opinion, which is closer to that of the Catholic Church of the 16th through 19th Centuries than is modern mainstream Catholicism, the Mass and the sacraments as they exist in mainstream Catholicism are as invalid as those in Protestant churches.

The fact is that Catholic doctrine has changed and developed over the centuries, especially in those areas not specifically addressed in Scripture, such as transubstantiation, the Immaculate Conception, papal infallibility, the celibacy of the priesthood, etc. It was not until the Council of Trent that the Deuterocanonical books were finally and dogmatically included in the canon of Catholic Scripture.

The definition of who is a Catholic is adherence to Catholic doctrine, drawn from Scripture, tradition, and those teachings of the Papacy and church councils deemed infallible, as it stands at a particular moment in time. What defined Anselm, Bellarmine, or Newman as Catholic in their particular eras is not exactly the same as what is the case in 2006. In other words, the teachings of the Catholic Church are not immutable.

The fact that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc., did not agree on all specifics does not indicate a lack of unity to their essential teachings. Likewise, the Catholic Church does not reject those theologians who are not in agreement with all the principles to which they currently adhere. The unifying factors include agreement on those doctrines that define orthodoxy, which are in Scripture, were defined in the first six ecumenical councils, and are part of Catholic and Eastern Orthodox doctrine (the Trinity, the divine inspiration of Scripture, the Substitutionary Atonement, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, eternal reward and punishment), as well as specific doctrines on which they concurred and which are Protestant distinctives, such as the five "solas", the priesthood of the believer and the primary definition of the church on earth as the invisible body of Christ made up of believers, rather than the institutional church.

Those who adhere to these doctrines are Protestants; those who don't are not. R.C. Sproul and Alfred Mohler are Protestants; Shelby Spong and Peter Gomes are not. By your definition of Catholic, Karl Keating and Scott Hahn are Catholics, but Hans Kung and Nicholas Gruner are not.

70 posted on 11/16/2006 8:49:58 AM PST by Wallace T.
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To: Wallace T.
will grant you that what you cited is a teaching of the Catholic Church.

*Grant accepted :)

However, not all the theologians who are considered Fathers and Doctors of the Catholic Church over the centuries are in 100% agreement with Catholic doctrine as it stands in 2006.

*Were they alive, they would be. All Holy Mother Church Teaches is part of the Original Deposit of Faith. Over time, guided by the Holy Spirit, we see the truth more deeply and clearly

Augustine of Hippo was closer to Calvin and Luther in soteriology than is the modern Catholic church, specifically, the issue of divine election vs. free will.

*Not even close. I understand why Calvinists try and co-opt him though.

Thomas Aquinas had problems with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, as Catholic teachings define it (though not denying the Virgin Mary's sinless condition when Jesus Christ was conceived

*Yep, and as I memorised back in the day "WOW" supplied the explanation WOW is William of Ware

Modern day Catholic doctrine teaches that non-Catholic Christians, and even Jews and Moslems, may possibly be saved, a sharp contrast with the anathemas of the Council of Trent, which condemned all who do not believe in the specific doctrines of Catholicism to Hell.

*Not at all. Vatican Two tied together two, seemingly contradictory, Traditions.

The traditionalist faction, which thinks itself as the only true Catholics left on earth, regard the changes in the Mass, mostly adopted in the 1960s, as incorporating Masonic, Protestant, and pagan practices. Thus, in their opinion, which is closer to that of the Catholic Church of the 16th through 19th Centuries than is modern mainstream Catholicism, the Mass and the sacraments as they exist in mainstream Catholicism are as invalid as those in Protestant churches.

*LOL Dont I know that ... I think of them as Protestants in Fiddlebacks

The fact is that Catholic doctrine has changed and developed over the centuries, especially in those areas not specifically addressed in Scripture, such as transubstantiation, the Immaculate Conception, papal infallibility, the celibacy of the priesthood, etc.

*Doctrine develops it does not change. I'll give you a million dollars if you can cite ONE Doctrinal Change. Try Usury, Try Slavery etc. You will fail.

It was not until the Council of Trent that the Deuterocanonical books were finally and dogmatically included in the canon of Catholic Scripture.

*Just because it hadn't been formally defined doesn't mean it wasn't part of Tradition.

The definition of who is a Catholic is adherence to Catholic doctrine, drawn from Scripture, tradition, and those teachings of the Papacy and church councils deemed infallible, as it stands at a particular moment in time. What defined Anselm, Bellarmine, or Newman as Catholic in their particular eras is not exactly the same as what is the case in 2006. In other words, the teachings of the Catholic Church are not immutable.

*Of course they are. To be Catholic, one must maintain the Bonds of Unity in Worship, Doctrine, and Authority. It has always been thus

The fact that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc., did not agree on all specifics does not indicate a lack of unity to their essential teachings.

*It sure does. Shall I limn all the ways they disagreed over essentials?

Likewise, the Catholic Church does not reject those theologians who are not in agreement with all the principles to which they currently adhere.

*Try reading Instruction on The Ecclesial Vocation of the Theologian promulgated when our current Pope was Prefect of the Congregation for thew Doctrine of the Faith

The unifying factors include agreement on those doctrines that define orthodoxy, which are in Scripture, were defined in the first six ecumenical councils, and are part of Catholic and Eastern Orthodox doctrine (the Trinity, the divine inspiration of Scripture, the Substitutionary Atonement, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, eternal reward and punishment), as well as specific doctrines on which they concurred and which are Protestant distinctives, such as the five "solas", the priesthood of the believer and the primary definition of the church on earth as the invisible body of Christ made up of believers, rather than the institutional church.

Those who adhere to these doctrines are Protestants; those who don't are not. R.C. Sproul and Alfred Mohler are Protestants; Shelby Spong and Peter Gomes are not. By your definition of Catholic, Karl Keating and Scott Hahn are Catholics, but Hans Kung and Nicholas Gruner are not.

*It is the Catholic Church's Teaching on what is necessarty to be Catholic. Again, it is not "mine"

MIne would be much more severe :)

71 posted on 11/16/2006 9:26:31 AM PST by bornacatholic
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