PREDESTINATION; LIVE BY GRACE; NOT BY WORKS (WEEK 8)

St. Louis Center for Christian Study ^ | Greg Johnson

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If salvation is all of grace -- if God is God and he has chosen us for salvation even though we did nothing to deserve it -- then we ought to live by the grace we have received. Of course, some of you will look at that and say to yourselves, “Yeah, I really need to do better at living by grace. I’ve really been a failure there. I hope God will forgive me again.” If that’s you, you still don’t get it. Go back and re-read the last seventeen pages and (if you’re a believer) remember that you’re one of the elect!

Our hearts so quickly try to relate to God on a works-basis! It’s our pride, really. I’m convinced that that’s the problem with free-will Arminianism. People naturally process it like this: God requires one work from me, to believe. Once I believe, I’ve done my work and deserve heaven. Of course, in more hard-line Arminian circles, it goes a step further. Unless I’m holy enough, I’ll still go to hell, and maybe I’ve even committed the unpardonable sin and will be damned even if I’m sinlessly perfect from here on out. Legalism. Legalism. Legalism. Such a religion is barely recognizable as Christianity.

But Calvinists can fall into legalism just as easily. You see, I understand predestination. I’m a superior Christian. I’ve got all my theological “t”s crossed and my Reformed “i”s dotted. I sure am close to God. Pride is the Presbyterian’s favorite form of legalism, so watch out! But if God really is for us, and if we had nothing to do with that decision -- if even our faith was given to us by the Father -- then there’s no room for boasting. God’s sovereign choice of us leaves us free from pride. It leaves us aware of our brokenness and humble before God, but all the while confident that his eternal purpose will stand, that we will glory in God forever as objects of his saving mercy. As God’s eternal blessing really begins to sink from our heads into our hearts, we see a new freedom that we never would have imagined when we first encountered the raw, holy, sovereign power of God. Among the newfound freedoms:

1. Freedom from shame, guilt & Insecurity

Read Romans 8:28-39. Nothing can separate you from God’s love -- nothing in the past, nothing in the future. No one can stand against you. No one can accuse you. Even bad things (“all things”) are working right now to your benefit, to make you more like Jesus. God didn’t choose you because of your faith, and Jesus is not ashamed of you—even at your worst (Hebrews 2:11). He’s proud to have you in the family, proud to call you brother or sister -- even knowing what he knows. He’s displaying the glory of his mercy, remember. God’s law is no longer your enemy, but a friend. You can have confidence before God.

2. Freedom from destructive Perfectionism

If God really is for you, then you can quit trying to look good. If you’re trying to be good enough for God, he’s not buying it -- he didn’t choose you because of your great faithfulness. If you’re trying to be good enough for other people, don’t bother. God wants to display his mercy -- that means we have to be broken. God’s glory is not displayed by trying to look like you have it all together. Faith is not a work, and even if it were it still wouldn’t earn you any brownie points. Let God be God. If you won’t show your weakness, then others won’t see God’s power displayed in it.

3. Freedom from legalistic man-made rules

Some of the biggest practical opponents to living by grace are those legalistic little rules that we live by. We love to judge other with them -- they make us look good, and help us feel better about ourselves. (Pride again.) Dress this way, not that way. Wear this much makeup, not that much. Work. Don’t work. Home school is God’s way. Public school is God’s way. Christian school is God’s way. Drink. Don’t drink. Smoke. Don’t smoke. Dance. Don’t dance. This is God’s worship style. If we’re all about God’s glory, there’s no room for any of this. Do whatever you do for God’s glory without comparisons. God has freed you from judging others. You don’t understand God’ sovereign grace until you realize you are a beggar who’s been blessed without cause. You had nothing to do with it -- you’re just a receiver.

4. Freedom from Penance

Even repentance can be a sham if we’re trying to approach God with some vestige of self-reliance. Biblical repentance is a freedom we can enjoy daily, while penance is its counterfeit.

Repentance/Penance

Comes with empty hands/Tries to bargain with God

Acknowledges real sin as against God/Makes excuses for sin

Grieves over displeasing God/Grieves over getting caught

Asks for help to do better/Promises to do better

Is willing to publicly confess, if needed/Is too proud to publicly confess

Relies on God's promises to us/Relies on own promises to God

Turns outward, away from self, to God/Turns inward on self

Produces freedom, joy, and confidence/Produces guilty feelings, anxiety

God has obligated himself to receive any repentant sinner who comes to him. Without this realization, true repentance is impossible. Until we realize that God is for us, we cannot truly be for God.

[Religion Moderator]

Both of you, stop making it personal. Now.

Accusing another Freeper of a lie is "making it personal" Dr Eckleburg.

Reading the mind of another poster is also "making it personal" adiaireton8.

[azhenfud]

Do Calvinists eat deviled ham, deviled eggs, or a Devil's Food cake?

Of course. We devour them with relish. 8~)

---

You eat deviled eggs with relish, too? I imagine it isn't too tasty with devil's food cake, though I admit a reluctance to try it....;-)

[azhenfud]

As stated earlier, I will leave this question for you to consider, "If you are then a son of God, would you please tell me why you should not believe these 'assurance verses' apply?"

[adiaireton8]

My apologies if it seemed I was trying to read your mind. I thought I was drawing a conclusion from posts #152, #157, #160 and #165. Here's the syllogism from those four posts:

A8: I ask (#152): "How does one know that one is elect?"

You reply (#157): If one possesses Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that person has a definite confidence he or she is among the elect.

A8: (#160) "So, if one has faith in Christ, that person can know that he is elect.

But, as you well know, it is not just 'faith' in an unqualified sense, but *true faith*, persevering faith. A mere temporary or faux-faith is not grounds for believing that one is elect.

So, that pushes back the question: How does one know now that one has a faith that will persevere to the end?"

You reply (#165): "Because they persevere to the end, by the grace of God."

What follows from that is (#167): "So until one perseveres to the end of one's life, one cannot know that one has persevering faith. And therefore, one cannot know that one is elect until one reaches the end of one's life. That has been my point all along."

So, if you don't accept this conclusion, then why don't you accept this conclusion?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Will you always love your children?

Only God knows for sure.

-A8

[azhenfud]

That's a good analogy Dr. E.

As Jesus stated, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

If we - being the fallen, can emphatically state we'll forever love our own flesh and blood and always be there for them to the best of our ability, who are we to doubt or question God's ability to endlessly love us?

Either the promises of God are true or they aren't. Either one believes his promises to be true or they don't. It isn't a hard multiple-guess pop-quiz either. It's one of those "you just know that you know" (and you know because the Spirit says so).

[Lord_Calvinus]

That is precisely the problem. The fact that they don't apply to the apostates-to-be means that in order to know whether they apply to us, we must know that we are not an apostate-to-be.

Nope! You have with your false logic simply turned Scripture into a fable.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Question: Was John really writing to true believers or to essentially nobody.

You would have me believe since no man may have assurance John writes to no one. Yet, John clearly addresses believers. Is John lying; delusional; over-stepping his authority? What?

The mere fact that some people are self-deceived fools heading for the Lake of Fire doesn't mean that we can't KNOW we have eternal life. John clearly states that believers MAY KNOW. Do you thing he is lying? What? Really!!! I know! Why don't you?

post tenebras lux,

[azhenfud]

"Therefore, if one possesses Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ, one can rest secure in every verse of Scripture, especially the assurance verses which were written to them by name by God from before the foundation of the world."

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Apparently his allowing us to hear his voice is assurance of being of the elect.

[Campion]

The mere fact that some people are self-deceived fools heading for the Lake of Fire doesn't mean that we can't KNOW we have eternal life.

The "self-deceived fools heading for the Lake of Fire" KNOW they have eternal life also, or think they do. And, they KNOW they aren't self-deceived fools, too, or think they do. (Because, of course, they're self-deceived.)

So what is the difference between what they claim to know, and what you claim to know?

[Forest Keeper]

Therefore, unless you know that apostates-to-be do not have the same earnestness you have, your own earnestness gives you no guarantee of your election.

OK, I see what you're saying. Allow me to amend my answer. :) According to my beliefs, an apostate-to-be is a person who never had true faith in the first place. True faith is only given by God and has nothing whatever to do with any cooperation by the believer. Therefore, the apostate-to-be was never given this faith by God. And consequently, his "conversion" could not have been like mine because his did not "count" and mine did.

I realize this brings us back to the beginning, but since this is only the spiritual part of my argument I can only confess my faith. I cannot compare my faith with that of another individual, but I can reason that the faith of a lost person is not the same as that of a saved person. Another point is that just as I cannot prove to you for certain that I am saved, neither can you prove to me that someone you know is an apostate who will wind up in hell. God saves whom He will and only He has the final list. Because of this, it makes no sense to compare my earnestness with that of a true apostate because no one can know who they are. We can only do it in the abstract, as above.

The problem is that you have no way of knowing *for yourself*.

Sure I can, I have the faith that God gave me. I think we could agree that since Christians mature in their faiths throughout their lives that Christian "A's" faith, in fact, is quantitatively different from Christian "B's". Each Christian's faith is at a different level and is ever, hopefully, growing. Therefore at my current level, whatever it is, I can say that my faith from God tells me that I can be assured of my salvation for the reasons we've discussed in addition to what the Bible says. God has given me specific sets of ears and eyes to hear and see His word in the way I do now. Those ears and eyes tell me that God's word specifically says, without reservation, that He wants only the best for His children and part of that best is the freedom to have assurance and confidence in Him and His promises as He makes them in scripture.

Now, I do not say this "as opposed" to you. :) Your faith is at its own level, whatever it is, and tells you that there are three pillars of authority, etc., and that one may not have assurance. In no way does this make you less Christian and I do not assert myself to any "higher" level than you or anyone else. Our respective faiths are currently where they are because that's exactly where God wants them to be. They will also be where God wants them to be 10 years from now, wherever that is.

The Catechism says this: "Hence, they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

How does excommunication fit into this? I would imagine that over time many have been thrown out over a single event or a single belief, but the person himself still believes in the Church. Is being involuntarily thrown out the same as "refusing"?

[wmfights]

"In the History of Christianity, Paul Johnson, a Roman Catholic, eminently fair appraiser of History,..."
____________________________

One of the things I truly enjoy with these threads is I pick up on new books to read. Thanks for the reference.

[wmfights]

"Will you always love your children?"
_______________________

I would die for them.

[Forest Keeper]

It really boils down to, do we believe Scripture. Jesus promised he would save all that BELIEVE in him.

Absolutely. In my own case, I accepted Christ just before college. Unfortunately, I had no church and no training, and so I immediately "fell away" for those college years. I put that in quotes because it was more like I never got started in practicing the faith in the first place. :) Right after college I was married and God led us to a church right away. We've been there these last 18 years.

Back then, I didn't have the slightest idea about what God's word said about such things. Now I look back and see that He did exactly as He promised.

[wmfights]

"Now I look back and see that He did exactly as He promised."
______________________

AMEN!

The evidence is there if we want to look for it. :-)

[Forest Keeper]

I'll bring an angel food cake. 8~)

Great idea! I'll be there and can bring my famous 5 (point) alarm chili.

[AlbionGirl]

Well, this is really shaping up...

Angel food cake, devil's food cake, 5-alarm chili (blazing saddles?). I'll bring the Buffalo wings w/blue cheese salad dressing for dipping, and pizza, of course.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And therefore, one cannot know that one is elect until one reaches the end of one's life. That has been my point all along.

Thanks for the recap. I got it all the first time.

One can have confidence they will persevere to the end because, unlike your post #185, wherein you state "only God knows for sure" that you will love your children forever, other FReepers can attest with absolute conviction that they will, indeed, love their children forever.

As Azhenfud explained in his excellent post #186...

As Jesus stated, "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

If we - being the fallen, can emphatically state we'll forever love our own flesh and blood and always be there for them to the best of our ability, who are we to doubt or question God's ability to endlessly love us?

Either the promises of God are true or they aren't. Either one believes his promises to be true or they don't. It isn't a hard multiple-guess pop-quiz either. It's one of those "you just know that you know" (and you know because the Spirit says so).

Thus I now understand why you're having difficulty recognizing the assurance God gives to all His flock since you likewise state you're uncertain that you will love your children forever.

At this point, I'm wondering if you have children.

[AlbionGirl]

Harley, ping to post 196. Forgot to include you...

[Campion]

Thus I now understand why you're having difficulty recognizing the assurance God gives to all His flock since you likewise state you're uncertain that you will love your children forever.

After looking through the dense, interdependent, Gordian-knot skein of errors you folks weave for yourselves, I'm intrigued that you compare the love of God for his children with the love of human parents for theirs.

I'm curious whether a loving Calvinist father:

• Feeds, dresses, and bathes his children without their coöperation, even when they are adults
• Leads them "irresistibly" toward what (he determines) best for them, without the slightest regard to their own freedom to decide what might be best for them for themselves
• Raises them in a household surrounded by a gaggle of other, evilly-inclined children, for whose existence he is also (somehow) responsible (although they aren't really his children), but whom he hates and wants to subject to endless punishment, all because that somehow "glorifies" him.

If that's your definition of fatherly love, I think it's safe to say that I don't "love" my children with that kind of love.

But then again, I don't think that's a very good description of divine love, either, which is why I'm not a Calvinist.

[azhenfud]

"....I'm intrigued that you compare the love of God for his children with the love of human parents for theirs."

You've grossly misinterpreted. There is not a COMPARISON made, but a CONTRAST pointed out just as the Master did.