Posted on 11/13/2006 11:01:10 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg
If salvation is all of grace -- if God is God and he has chosen us for salvation even though we did nothing to deserve it -- then we ought to live by the grace we have received. Of course, some of you will look at that and say to yourselves, “Yeah, I really need to do better at living by grace. I’ve really been a failure there. I hope God will forgive me again.” If that’s you, you still don’t get it. Go back and re-read the last seventeen pages and (if you’re a believer) remember that you’re one of the elect!
Our hearts so quickly try to relate to God on a works-basis! It’s our pride, really. I’m convinced that that’s the problem with free-will Arminianism. People naturally process it like this: God requires one work from me, to believe. Once I believe, I’ve done my work and deserve heaven. Of course, in more hard-line Arminian circles, it goes a step further. Unless I’m holy enough, I’ll still go to hell, and maybe I’ve even committed the unpardonable sin and will be damned even if I’m sinlessly perfect from here on out. Legalism. Legalism. Legalism. Such a religion is barely recognizable as Christianity.
But Calvinists can fall into legalism just as easily. You see, I understand predestination. I’m a superior Christian. I’ve got all my theological “t”s crossed and my Reformed “i”s dotted. I sure am close to God. Pride is the Presbyterian’s favorite form of legalism, so watch out! But if God really is for us, and if we had nothing to do with that decision -- if even our faith was given to us by the Father -- then there’s no room for boasting. God’s sovereign choice of us leaves us free from pride. It leaves us aware of our brokenness and humble before God, but all the while confident that his eternal purpose will stand, that we will glory in God forever as objects of his saving mercy. As God’s eternal blessing really begins to sink from our heads into our hearts, we see a new freedom that we never would have imagined when we first encountered the raw, holy, sovereign power of God. Among the newfound freedoms:
1. Freedom from shame, guilt & Insecurity
Read Romans 8:28-39. Nothing can separate you from God’s love -- nothing in the past, nothing in the future. No one can stand against you. No one can accuse you. Even bad things (“all things”) are working right now to your benefit, to make you more like Jesus. God didn’t choose you because of your faith, and Jesus is not ashamed of you—even at your worst (Hebrews 2:11). He’s proud to have you in the family, proud to call you brother or sister -- even knowing what he knows. He’s displaying the glory of his mercy, remember. God’s law is no longer your enemy, but a friend. You can have confidence before God.
2. Freedom from destructive Perfectionism
If God really is for you, then you can quit trying to look good. If you’re trying to be good enough for God, he’s not buying it -- he didn’t choose you because of your great faithfulness. If you’re trying to be good enough for other people, don’t bother. God wants to display his mercy -- that means we have to be broken. God’s glory is not displayed by trying to look like you have it all together. Faith is not a work, and even if it were it still wouldn’t earn you any brownie points. Let God be God. If you won’t show your weakness, then others won’t see God’s power displayed in it.
3. Freedom from legalistic man-made rules
Some of the biggest practical opponents to living by grace are those legalistic little rules that we live by. We love to judge other with them -- they make us look good, and help us feel better about ourselves. (Pride again.) Dress this way, not that way. Wear this much makeup, not that much. Work. Don’t work. Home school is God’s way. Public school is God’s way. Christian school is God’s way. Drink. Don’t drink. Smoke. Don’t smoke. Dance. Don’t dance. This is God’s worship style. If we’re all about God’s glory, there’s no room for any of this. Do whatever you do for God’s glory without comparisons. God has freed you from judging others. You don’t understand God’ sovereign grace until you realize you are a beggar who’s been blessed without cause. You had nothing to do with it -- you’re just a receiver.
4. Freedom from Penance
Even repentance can be a sham if we’re trying to approach God with some vestige of self-reliance. Biblical repentance is a freedom we can enjoy daily, while penance is its counterfeit.
Repentance/Penance
Comes with empty hands/Tries to bargain with God
Acknowledges real sin as against God/Makes excuses for sin
Grieves over displeasing God/Grieves over getting caught
Asks for help to do better/Promises to do better
Is willing to publicly confess, if needed/Is too proud to publicly confess
Relies on God's promises to us/Relies on own promises to God
Turns outward, away from self, to God/Turns inward on self
Produces freedom, joy, and confidence/Produces guilty feelings, anxiety
God has obligated himself to receive any repentant sinner who comes to him. Without this realization, true repentance is impossible. Until we realize that God is for us, we cannot truly be for God.
Where in Romans 8 does it say that you [Terabitten] are elect?
-A8
-A8
Your inquiry was, ''How do you know that the "assurance verses" apply to you?'' to which I replied and showed you God said in scripture he'd write his covenant within your heart. If you believe scripture for salvation's sake, you must believe what he promised is true - that his covenant is written within your heart and in your mind. If his promises are true, then that assurance is your's.
Because you are appealing to your earnestness as evidence that you are elect. But if apostates-to-be people can also have that same earnestness, then earnestness is not a guarantee of election. Therefore, unless you know that know that apostates-to-be do not have the same earnestness you have, your own earnestness gives you no guarantee of your election.
The assurance and perseverance verses show a doctrine that a person with true faith cannot be lost. I believe that doctrine. If the words of the Bible are true, then a person with false faith cannot have truly accepted Christ.
Indeed. But the whole question here is whether you have true faith, and not a faith that will eventually fade away.
And, my POV in all this is to answer the question "How does Forest know he is saved", NOT "Can Forest prove to A8 that he is saved". I cannot "prove" it to you or anyone else with absolute certainty because you can't know what's in my heart. I am telling why I think I can know.
I agree. The problem is that you have no way of knowing *for yourself*. Your evidence to yourself of your election is two things: "earnestness" and "effects". In order for those to be evidence of your election, you have to know that whereever there is "earnestness" and "effects", there is election. And the problem is, you don't know that, because apostates-to-be could have that same "earnestness" and "effects".
But I don't know that there are many examples of people who believe as I do and yet fell away permanently.
Exactly.
There are many examples of those who professed great faith, but who can tell what was really in their hearts?
Precisely.
I can only be certain about my own faith.
How can you be certain now that your own faith will not fade away? That you will not turn out to be an apostate-to-be?
How can you be certain that those you are speaking of had true faith?
I never claimed that apostates-to-be had true faith.
Is it the general view among Catholics that he was probably not saved?
I don't know the "general view". The Catechism says this: "Hence, they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." Whether Tertullian knew that [the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ] or not, I do not know.
You cannot know the heart of another, so you cannot presume his faith to be as I claim for myself.
I am not claiming to know the heart of any other. The problem is that you are using the earnestness of your own heart as evidence of your election, when you don't whether that same earnestness is found in apostates-to-be, and therefore, you don't know that such earnestness is evidence of election.
I reject the premise because it is an impossibility. :)
That's what apostates-to-be say as well. So your rejecting the premise does not show it to be false with respect to you.
-A8
-A8
You won't find the Sacred Magisterium in the scripture either. I did a word search. The Church told you it.
We can argue for the next six months and 3,000 posts about the authority of the scriptures and never get anywhere. The fact is that the Catholic Church claims that every decision they make is based upon the scripture as has been interpreted through the lens of time by their learned scholars who know better then everyone else and were led by the Holy Spirit in creating the right doctrine. Well, I happen to believe that God will lead me to all truth necessary for my walk with Him if I dillegently study His word. You trust the Church to tell you what is right. I trust God to tell me what is right.
That's a good question. I would defer that answer to the petitioner and reply only that it would depend whether they believe the scriptures to be the inspired word of God. If they do, either God is a God of truth or he isn't. If they don't believe scripture is truth and God is truthful, that shortens the negotiable discussion considerably. Doesn't it?
Right, that's the only thing all the other members of all the other 20,000+ Christian sects have in common. Apparently that's working out real well for you all.
-A8
-A8
"The Reformed view is that a person with true faith might fall away for a time, even possibly a prolonged time, but the scriptures clearly state that God will not lose one of His sheep, and the person will be brought back into the fold before the end."
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Amen!
Haven't we all fallen short on occasion, or done stupid things, or questioned our faith? I know I have.
It really boils down to, do we believe Scripture. Jesus promised he would save all that BELIEVE in him.
The Catholic Church never claimed to be the only sect of people claiming to be Christ-followers. Many heretical groups identified themselves as Christ-followers, i.e. Christian. But the Catholic Church always claimed to be the one true Church, the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. No other sect can say that or does say that.
the surest way to learn what the Lord wants us to know is to read the inspired "God Breathed" writings from the Apostolic Era that became our Bible.
"Surest?" As evidenced by 20,000+ sects claiming to do just that. Obviously, this approach is *not* the "surest" way to learn what Christ wanted to know. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so much disagreement and division resulting from that approach.
-A8
That's not the point in question. The point in question is whether we can know now that we "BELIEVE" in Him with a faith that will not fade.
-A8
"Why have one lawyer when you can have six."
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If they want to make any money you have to have at least two.
That's only a problem if 'sola scriptura' is true. But 'sola scriptura' is not true, nor is the doctrine of sola scriptura taught anywhere in Scripture. Therefore, not finding the term 'Sacred Magisterium' in Scripture is not a problem.
-A8
Ah....someone has been reading their history I see... ;O)
Keep sharing. Great stuff.
"Keep sharing. Great stuff."
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Thank you.
The L&E thread was great because it opened up so many points of discussion. It's too bad it died.
And I again would answer the question, "Will you please tell me whether I should believe that these 'assurance verses' apply to me?" by stating, "Yes - they do apply, but your acknowledgement of that fact is borne by your acceptance of and belief in the truth of scripture. If you believe scripture, then you would believe, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" and you would accept its applicability to you, personally.
You would then know:
John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
To wit: are you of the many who received him? if so, he gave you the power to become the son of God. Your belief or doubt has no effect on that which he has already provided. Only your acceptance or denial determines whether or not you reside in that knowledge.
I will leave this question for you to consider, "If you are then a son of God, would you please tell me why you should not believe these 'assurance verses' apply?"
So you would tell an apostate-to-be that the 'assurance verses' apply to him. But in that case, the 'assurance verses' don't guarantee that those to whom they apply are elect, since the apostates-to-be are not elect. Therefore, it is no good appealing to 'assurance verses' to show that one is elect.
-A8
At least it's good to see you are trying to measure truth by Scripture. But where do you find "the Sacred Magisterium" in Scripture (from your post 108)?
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