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To: wmfights
Stunning isn't that all the inspired "God Breathed" writings that comprise the New Testament were written during the Apostolic Era.

If one were to do a search on "written" in scripture they would get approximately 253 hits with 125 of those being in the New Testament itself. It is rather laughable for our Catholic friends to say nothing was written down until the 3rd century when many of the church fathers prior to that time quote from the scriptures.

Pliny went on to explain he found no evidence of cannibalism. IOW, the earliest Christians passed the cup because they did not believe the wine had been transformed.

Yes, I find no direct evidence in the very early writings of fathers that they felt "changes" took place during communion.

There is a rather interest part in one of Augustine's writing where he states the early Christians at first believed you had to baptized to be saved. Once you were baptized you had to live a perfect life. To paraphrase Augustine, right after the first baptisms, Christians discovered they were falling short of living a perfect life. Next they decided to wait until their deathbed but some of them died before they could be baptized which they thought meant going to hell. Worst yet, others recovered. Finally they realized that baptism is only a sign.

I find this part of Augustine's writing to be rather interesting if not somewhat funny. The early Christians had to work a lot of these theologies out and not always did they get it right. Obviously, some of the theologies like baptism was a lot easier to figure out but they took this stuff very seriously.

Many of the early fathers were coming out of pagan cultures and, as godly as they tried to be given their situation, they were prone to errors just like everyone else. Some of them held very strange ideas and the Eucharist was one of them. But I really see the problems develop later (around 600AD and upwards) as humanism enveloped the church, the problems with the Crusades (1000-1400??) as people were leaving the Church, the Renaissance's man-centered influenece on theology, and finally the Reformation.

1,496 posted on 10/26/2006 3:11:34 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

INDEED. You make many excellent valid points.

Shockingly, I agree with all of them. Truly a miraculous event! LOL.


1,508 posted on 10/26/2006 6:39:14 AM PDT by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: HarleyD
"Many of the early fathers were coming out of pagan cultures and, as godly as they tried to be given their situation, they were prone to errors just like everyone else. Some of them held very strange ideas and the Eucharist was one of them. But I really see the problems develop later (around 600AD and upwards) as humanism enveloped the church,..."
________________________________

I wonder if the humanism that developed came from the gnostics who were never completely rooted out?

One interesting theory I've read about the common meal tradition, during which they had the Eucharist, is that it was the communal nature and fellowship that led to Jesus being there (not in the substances).

I think it is clear that because of man's fallibility it is always best to rely on the "God breathed" inspired writings that are the New Testament and not on any source that is subject to historical pressures.
1,538 posted on 10/26/2006 7:39:39 AM PDT by wmfights (Psalm : 27)
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