Replies

Qx: OK, here goes. Thanks tons for your kind and wise post. Comments follow:

Quix,

IQ: Thank you for your thoughtful response. You've expressed some very reasonable concerns about institutions and authority.

Qx: Thanks for the kindness of your saying so.

IQ: If you were addressing your concerns to a bishop's conference, I'm sure a lot of the bishops would be nodding their heads in agreement with many of your sentiments. Here and elsewhere, you have said some very good things about the relationship of the individual to God, and your comments about problems in Church organization would serve well as a nucleus for discussion about the current state of the Christian Church.

Qx: Praise God for whatever degree of His truth may have resided in my humble words. Thanks for your comments.

IQ: In that, we are on the same page. Nonetheless, we are left with a question of authority. Is every individual the ultimate authority as to what is and is not legitimate Christian doctrine and dogma?

Qx: ESSENTIALLY, YES. EVEN IN THE ROMAN GROUP. Each individual must comprehend and relate to the whole of reality confronting his senses. This includes pontifications from whatever leaders, traditions etc. Each individual has to evaluate whether such are fitting, Biblical, fruitful, anointed, Spirit led; Christian, kosher, kind, loving, Godly, life giving . . . whatever.

Qx: And THEN, they have to adjust their behaviors, beliefs, expectations, associations accordingly. That's what it means to be human. Organizations of all sorts, of all ages, complexities, orthodoxy or not . . . are merely external stimuli at some level. Many make all manner of claims. But God still holds each individual accountable for measuring things by His Word and by His current voice to the individual.

Qx: When we get to Heaven, claiming that Oh, Lord, it was THAT CHURCH that told me this or that--such WILL NOT DO. God will merely point to His Written Word and/or what Holy Spirit had told the individual about the situation and the consequence will still be effected; the humiliation still be experienced. AUTHORITY TOLD ME TO will not wash for any Roman Believer then any more than it did for Hitler's underlings.

IQ: Is every denomination the ultimate authority? I think you and I would answer both of these questions in the negative.

Qx: NO. HOLY SPIRIT IS THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY and came to reside WITHIN EACH BELIEVER AND TO LEAD EACH BELIEVER INTO ALL TRUTH . . . actually . . . in a way which requires other believers to add their awareness of Holy Spirit led truth such that we all need each other to arrive at the whole counsel of God in situation after situation.

Qx: The track record of any organization; any leadership . . . maintaining an anointed leadership beyond some months, if that . . . is wholesale missing. Talk about an argument from silence, that's a big one.

IQ As for the article at the head of this thread, its point is not to disparage Protestant Christians. No one is asking you to fly to Rome and kiss Pope Benedict's ring or renounce your personal opinions. Rather, this is a call for a mature dialog with sincere Christians of differing view points, and you've brought some very reasonable concerns to the table.

Qx: Thanks much. I enjoy dialogue with all who truly Love Jesus and seek to grow in their relationship with Him; in their Biblical understanding and in their walk with Holy Spirit's guidance.

IQ: We have problems in the Church. Some of those are very understandable and expected. The Church is a hospital for ailing souls, and problems of individual sin are inevitable in a Church whose mission is to sinners, both inside and outside its ranks.

Qx: True.

IQ: However, we also have a tremendous scandal of a divided Church. This runs completely against Christ's prayer that we all be one, hampers evangelization, and allows for dangerous heresies to exist among sincere and well intentioned Christians, side by side with orthodox Christian teaching.

Qx: There's a very huge amount of evidence that such occurred well within the confines of the Roman group for centuries without such external goings on. Certainly the Roman hierarchy participated in such . . . at times . . . seemingly willy nilly as has happened in plenty of other groups of significant age.

Qx: IOW, the existence of the Roman group was not only unable to prevent the horrors you mentioned--it perpetuated plenty of them plenty of historical times. How could we expect less--the hierarchy is made up of flawed human beings.

Qx: That's where I Cor 12-14 comes in again. We are all to submit ONE TO ANOTHER. We are all to exhort ONE ANOTHER. We are all to CONFESS one to another. We are all to warn each other in Love when we see a brother headed for the ditch. etc. etc.

Qx: I have NEVER seen any hierarchical, organized authority prevent the horrors you outline more than occasionally in this or that life but never wholesale in the organization beyond some months to a few years and then only in selected narrow ways, topics.

Qx: So, the reason postulated for the essentialness of the Roman group, from my reading of history and current era observations is that IT TOO FAILS UTTERLY--100% in terms of the raison d'etra for it's existence as postulated hereon--i.e. protecting orthodoxy. Doesn't work.

Qx: It never worked in the Old Testament. Christ made it abundantly clear it didn't work in his earthly era. Paul made clear that Holy Spirit working amongst those submitted to HIM--TO HOLY SPIRIT IN DAILY DIALOGUE AND HUMILITY--AND SUBMITTED ONE TO ANOTHER in local groups meeting together submitted to Holy Spirit--that was the only likely insurance against such.

Qx: Sure, the Pastors etc. were to help, assist, lead in a list of ways . . . But I find no where in the NT any remotely clear outline or expectation that Paul expected such leadership to succeed apart from I Cor 12-14 operations led by Holy Spirit. I believe that Paul saw human leadership as merely assisting Holy Spirit's supreme leadership of each meeting.

IQ: We've all felt the frustration of trying to sort out the serious and competing claims made by different groups. Which group(s) are correct? You and I have also both seen Christians forcefully mis-represet repugnant views as being foundational to the Christian message.

Qx: Certainly. But the Roman hierarchy, customs, traditions, polilcies, laws etc. have proven repeatedly over the centuries to be utter failures at improving that situation. As has every other group of any significant age. It just won't wash.

Qx: As Billy Graham has taught about the related Scriptures--we each must seek to be refilled with Holy Spirit daily. The cares of the world cause a lot of leakage. And that's true for hierarchical leaders as well as for sheep. Apart from that, there is no LEADING INTO ALL TRUTH of any lasting substance or amount. With that, the need for the hierarchical leadership is minimized more toward waiting tables and seeing after the widows and orphans.

IQ: Fundamentally, the opening piece serves to move the conversation about authority out of a very unproductive rut. How is the authority of God manifested in His Church?

Qx: I Corinthians 12-14 answers that question conclusively for all time in the Church age. The New Testament offers no better description of God's solution for that; God's plan and design for that.

IQ: We live in a fallen world, and we human beings have fallen natures. As you alluded, this leads to problems with human organizations. It also leads, however, to severe problems with individuals as well, and this includes the attempts by individuals to arrogate to themselves absolute authority to determine what is and is not authentic Christian morality and doctrine.

Qx: I despair of communicating more effectively on this issue. It appears that no amount nor quality of my poor words will do very effectively.

Qx: INDIVIDUALS ARE NOT ABSOLUTE AUTHORITIES UNTO THEMSELVES IN THE I COR 12-14 MODEL!!!

Qx: They are first of all, submitted authentically, serioiusly, truly, functionally, practically . . . in all ways to greater or lesser degree to HOLY SPIRIT. HE IS EQUAL TO THE CHALLENGE FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL. Sooner or later as each earnest individual cooperates with Him, HE WILL BE THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF THAT INDIVIDUAL'S FAITH SUCH THAT THE INDIVIDUAL WILL BE PRESENTED BY CHRIST BLAMELESS BEFORE THE FATHER.

Qx: NO HIERARCHICAL AUTHORITY CAN MANAGE THAT. ONLY HOLY SPIRIT CAN MANAGE THAT.

Qx: Sure individuals wander off the beam--WHETHER THEY ARE HIERARCHICAL LEADERS OR 'LOWER" SHEEP. ONLY HOLY SPIRIT CAN correct the problem at the heart/spirit/mind level within such individuals.

Qx: IF ANYTHING, hierarchical organizations tend to make such flaws worse; tend to institutionalize them as idolized idiosyncracies; tend to defend them; cover them over; white-wash them; polish them as examples of good organizational orthodoxy because all the organizational externals and hoops were done well . . . etc. etc. etc.

IQ: We are not saying that the Christian Church can substitute for the individuals relationship with God.

Qx: PERHAPS not . . . ideally. But I have heard plenty implying even sounding like that was a cardinal doctrine of Romanism. WORSE, THE SHEEP TALK THAT WAY. THEY MAKE CHOICES THAT WAY. THEY REVERE THAT WAY. THEY OOOOH AND AHHHH AND BOW AND SCRAPE THAT WAY. They walk like that duck; float like that duck; fly like that duck; quack like that duck . . . so as a 59 year observer . . . I'm extremely unconvinced of that assertion. The evidence is virtually ALL on the other side--except for a few isolated Spirit-FILLED AND LED little groups here and there that I've come across.

IQ: What we are saying, however, is that Christ did indeed found an organization, a Church, and that as an organization, the Church, plays a crucial role in the divine plan of salvation. This includes a role in which the Church exercises authority in teaching doctrine and morality.

Qx: The Church Universal has a role to play. And, generally, it's botched it repeatedly and horribly. It's a mystery to me how and when God is going to clean up Christ's Church. But He will--FOR THOSE INDIVIDUALS WILLING TO FOLLOW HIS OVERHAUL EFFORTS IN THOROUGH GOING SPIRIT LED SUBMISSION AND COOPERATION.

Qx: But it won't be the hierarchical leaders leading the way. It will be the folks in the pews--as it has been for decades now in all denominational groups, including the Roman one.

IQ: What then is the relationship between the individual and the Church? The individual does not determine doctrine.

Qx: HOLY SPIRIT DETERMINES DOCTRINE. INDIVIDUALS GIVE ASSENT OR NOT. They follow the assent with acctions accordingly or not. THIS IS TRUE WHETHER HIERARCHICAL leaders are involved, OR NOT.

Qx: As badly as pharisaical leaders have wished for it and tried to behave as though they had it--LEADERS DO NOT HAVE ROBOTIZING POWER OVER FOLLOWERS--EVEN IN THE ROMAN GROUP. God made each follower more than sufficiently blessed with choice sufficiently to have to determine, SEEK GOD AND DISCERN BY HIS SPIRIT, OR NOT whether something was of God, or not.

Qx: In my experience, it has been as it was in the Welsh revival . . . leaders polluted the Spirit's message far more than furthered or affirmed it. I have known very rare exceptions of that.

IQ The Church has been entrusted with the Apostolic deposit of faith,

Qx: Depends on what one means by that but I can probably assent to that wholesale enough if one means THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL and not merely the Roman group. But my meaning of the NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH is THOSE INDIVIDUALS BIBLICALLY STUDYING THE WRITTEN WORD; FELLOWSHIPPING TOGETHER; GROWING TOGETHER AS IRON SHARPENS IRON UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Qx: leadership in a given locale can help make some things more reasonable and orderly but the hazard that seems to effect in virtually every case . . . is that if the leadership starts taking responsibility for church life--then they feel compelled to compell the sheep to do it THE LEADERS' WAY instead of Holy Spirit's way. So, as in the Welsh revival . . . Holy Spirit backs away and leaves it to em. And the dry husk continues. The whited sepulchars continue slathering the white wash on. and pretend Holy Spirit is blessing HUMAN junk.

IQ: and it falls to the Church to determine whether or not a particular doctrine is consistent with or opposed to the Apostolic faith.

Qx: Yes and no. Mostly no. The church is individuals. Even a hierarchical leadership is individuals. GOD DID NOT SAVE ORGANIZATIONS. GOD DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS FOR ORGANIZATIONS. ORGANIZATIONS ARE CHAFF OR WORSE.

Qx: It is individuals who are to be in Holy Spirit dialogue with God, daily, moment by moment. In my experience, the best of organizations sooner or later only or mostly hinder that process, that dialogue instead of facilitate and bless it.

Qx: Different specific leaders of great humility and Spirit led-ness have been a blessing in my walk with God. Probably 95% of the spiritual/religious leaders I've had contact with have been enormously destructive. The same is true for those I've watched in other congregations. Roman leaders I've observed has been as destructive to dialogue with God as any others I've observed.

Qx: That's not a great way to affirm anything God's doing whether it's doctrine or how to love a widow in a Christ-like way.

IQ: To the believer falls the choice of dissent or assent. In this the Catholic Church teaches that the individual must follow a well-formed conscience.

Qx: imho, the Roman church has helped SOME MINORITY of it's members to have healthy consciences. A small minority. But it has been almost in spite of the leadership and the structure, the organization.

Qx: HOLY SPIRIT IS THE ONLY ONE WITH ACCESS TO THE INNER MAN. HE IS THE ONLY ONE CAPABLE OF THAT KIND OF INNER OVERHAUL AS WELL AS HIGH QUALITY INNER TRAINING OF CONSCIENCE AND ALL ELSE HUMAN.

IQ: The Christian Faith has been handed down through the Church. It was our predecessors who received the faith from the Christ through the Apostles, and who have passed their understanding of the faith down to us.

Qx: PLEASE GET AND READ SOONISH: ETERNITY IN THEIR HEARTS. It's by a Christian anthropologist . . . who discovered tribal case after tribal case WHERE GOD ALMIGHTY VIA HIS SPIRIT BLESSED DIFFERENT TRIBES WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GOSPEL--SOMETIMES VERY SOVEREIGNLY AND INDEPENDENTLY OF ALL OTHER AGENTS.

Qx: NO organization was invovled in some cases. Certainly NO ROMAN organiation or group was invovled. Evidently God disagrees with the perceived Romon monopoly on such things.

IQ: We Catholics believe that the Church had an Apostolic and hierarchical structure, and we believe that this Church has existed since the time of Christ.

Qx: And most of us on my side believe that the historical record is entirely otherwise.

Qx: But at some point it doesn't matter--once Holy Spirit withdraws the anointing, all the tradition, history, lineage, etc. one could muster . . . the pharisees of Jesus' day had the best such--didn't wash. Didn't matter . . . was a liability as Christ made most forcefully and loudly clear.

IQ: We are presenting views here which we think are quite reasonable, as we feel they are consistent with Scripture, and with our historical understanding of the history of Christianity. There is still plenty of room for discussion and sincere disagreement within this framework.

Qx: I have understood your perspective on that score from the beginning. It is not my construction on reality at all. Disagreement is one thing. Mangling the historical record to fit biases is another.

IQ: For the purposes of sincere Christian dialog, it would be helpful if the reasonableness of our views was acknowledged, even if you do not agree with them.

Qx: I have no problem acknowledging reasonableness where it appears and feels fitting. Not everything on your side does. I'm sure the same could be at least postulated for our side.

IQ: It is also helpful to have our partners in dialog give a frank assessment of their own positions, and it is important that we both be willing to move away from slogans which do not reflect reality.

Qx: That's problematic. I agree but am not sure how practical it is ongoingly. I have tried to tighten up on such. But sometimes, the stark forceful truth requires some stark statements to communicate the essentials and their import . . . imho.

IQ: I think you have gone a long way toward accomplishing this in several of your critical posts, and you have also made an important call to not lose sight of the individual's relationship to God when Christian authority is discussed.

Qx: thanks for that affirmation and for noticing that. Only by God's Grace. Praise God for His faithfulness. I merely try in my humble, poor way to do what feeble things I can.

IQ: I'm glad to see you voicing your opinions on this thread. I've seen enough of your posts to realize that you do have something very important to say.

Qx: I don't think so. I do think, hope, pray God has some important things to say through me.

IQ: If this conversation is making you feel that we Catholics are being condescending to you our Christian brother, then we have failed in some sense.

Qx: Yes, that's a recurring problem but I expect it and am not overly upset by that, per se. Only when it gets haughty and shrill in a reallllllllllllly super redundant way does it get particularly annoying.

Qx: I'm also not seeking any such attitude, tone etc. toward any Roman believers. I do have no compunctions about being forceful about BELIEFS etc. which I find unBiblical and destructive to intimacy with God, however.

IQ: If this is the case, perhaps you could suggest how we might do better in the future.

Qx: Only : LOVE GOD WHOLLY AND OTHERS AS YOURSELF; Let us all work more earnestly to "do unto others . . . "

Qx: THANKS TONS AND TONS FOR YOUR REASONABLE AND WISE WRODS. Have been blessed by them and by your character. Smells a bit like Jesus. Love that.