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Human critters like CONTROL.

ESPECIALLY IN RELIGION. Was evident throughout all Scripture.

Groups are wonderful tools for control freaks.

Individuals AND GROUPS LOVE PREDICTABILITY, consistency, sameness. Helps individuals feel SAFE.

God died that we might have RESTORED DAILY INTIMATE DIALOGUE WITH HIM--A RESTORED WALK IN THE GARDEN IN THE COOL OF THE EVE sort of thing. Christ's Blood was an awful price for such RESTORED DIALOGUE, RELATIONSHIP.

But humans are persistently insistent--you talk to God, Moses/Bossman. We are afraid. We don't want to get that close to God.

So, we'll set up this organization here to do the RELIGIOUS thing for us and pretend that's relating rightly to God. But since we were made to worship something and worshipping CLOSE TO GOD is tooooo scary, we'll end up worshipping the organization as God--maybe not overtly but in practice, in our actions . . . and in our defenses of it. Much easier than doing what God says to us Day by Day.

Shoot HE EXPECTS ME TO GROW IN GRACE, IN LOVE, IN WALKING IN HIS SPIRIT! THAT'S SCARY! Thanks, anyway, Moses, You do it, bossman. I'll just continue to go through all these organizational hoop jumping exercises on occasion and then I'll imagine that THAT makes me righteous and I'll feel safe and comfortable. And God won't bother me that much about changing because I won't be close enough to hear Him. But I'll pretend the organization covers all that for me with The Big Man.

Quix,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. You've expressed some very reasonable concerns about institutions and authority. If you were addressing your concerns to a bishop's conference, I'm sure a lot of the bishops would be nodding their heads in agreement with many of your sentiments. Here and elsewhere, you have said some very good things about the relationship of the individual to God, and your comments about problems in Church organization would serve well as a nucleus for discussion about the current state of the Christian Church.

In that, we are on the same page. Nonetheless, we are left with a question of authority. Is every individual the ultimate authority as to what is and is not legitimate Christian doctrine and dogma? Is every denomination the ultimate authority? I think you and I would answer both of these questions in the negative. As for the article at the head of this thread, its point is not to disparage Protestant Christians. No one is asking you to fly to Rome and kiss Pope Benedict's ring or renounce your personal opinions. Rather, this is a call for a mature dialog with sincere Christians of differing view points, and you've brought some very reasonable concerns to the table.

We have problems in the Church. Some of those are very understandable and expected. The Church is a hospital for ailing souls, and problems of individual sin are inevitable in a Church whose mission is to sinners, both inside and outside its ranks. However, we also have a tremendous scandal of a divided Church. This runs completely against Christ's prayer that we all be one, hampers evangelization, and allows for dangerous heresies to exist among sincere and well intentioned Christians, side by side with orthodox Christian teaching. We've all felt the frustration of trying to sort out the serious and competing claims made by different groups. Which group(s) are correct? You and I have also both seen Christians forcefully mis-represet repugnant views as being foundational to the Christian message.

Fundamentally, the opening piece serves to move the conversation about authority out of a very unproductive rut. How is the authority of God manifested in His Church? We live in a fallen world, and we human beings have fallen natures. As you alluded, this leads to problems with human organizations. It also leads, however, to severe problems with individuals as well, and this includes the attempts by individuals to arrogate to themselves absolute authority to determine what is and is not authentic Christian morality and doctrine.

We are not saying that the Christian Church can substitute for the individuals relationship with God. What we are saying, however, is that Christ did indeed found an organization, a Church, and that as an organization, the Church, plays a crucial role in the divine plan of salvation. This includes a role in which the Church exercises authority in teaching doctrine and morality.

What then is the relationship between the individual and the Church? The individual does not determine doctrine. The Church has been entrusted with the Apostolic deposit of faith, and it falls to the Church to determine whether or not a particular doctrine is consistent with or opposed to the Apostolic faith. To the believer falls the choice of dissent or assent. In this the Catholic Church teaches that the individual must follow a well-formed conscience.

The Christian Faith has been handed down through the Church. It was our predecessors who received the faith from the Christ through the Apostles, and who have passed their understanding of the faith down to us. We Catholics believe that the Church had an Apostolic and hierarchical structure, and we believe that this Church has existed since the time of Christ. We are presenting views here which we think are quite reasonable, as we feel they are consistent with Scripture, and with our historical understanding of the history of Christianity. There is still plenty of room for discussion and sincere disagreement within this framework.

For the purposes of sincere Christian dialog, it would be helpful if the reasonableness of our views was acknowledged, even if you do not agree with them. It is also helpful to have our partners in dialog give a frank assessment of their own positions, and it is important that we both be willing to move away from slogans which do not reflect reality. I think you have gone a long way toward accomplishing this in several of your critical posts, and you have also made an important call to not lose sight of the individual's relationship to God when Christian authority is discussed.

I'm glad to see you voicing your opinions on this thread. I've seen enough of your posts to realize that you do have something very important to say. If this conversation is making you feel that we Catholics are being condescending to you our Christian brother, then we have failed in some sense. If this is the case, perhaps you could suggest how we might do better in the future.